Sondheim's weaker lyrics/rhymes — Page 4

Reading this thread is like listening to a classroom full of all my worst students ever; the ones who like to make themselves feel smart by pointing out how bad great artists are. And you can't explain to them how they don't get it, because they vastly prefer the illusion of feeling smart more than learning anything.

Except that is NOT for the most part what has occurred in this thread. Most of us are just discussing lines that surprise us precisely because they come from the magical pencil of our favorite lyricist.

Thanks to Morosco, we now know why "careen" is not an acceptable substitute for "career". That doesn't convince me "career" is a verb Carlotta would know and use, but at least it tells us one reason why Sondheim made the choice he did.

I don't for a moment believe that Sondheim writes any lyric haphazardly; on the contrary, I assume he has a reason for each choice even if I don't understand it. And I assume we--who have heard the same songs hundreds of times--were speculating on those reasons here.

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Personally, I'm shocked to hear that Sondheim cut "you're not good/you're not bad/you're just nice". I thought it was the point of the entire show! (And I think it describes almost all of us, not just a certain "type".)

I've always had a problem with Charley's lyric from "Franklin Shepherd Inc":

"No I like money alot/mmmmmm/
I mean, it's better than not!"

What are we to glean from this lyric. I'm guessing what Sondheim means Charley to [sloppily] say is he "likes money a lot. I mean its better than not (having any)". Which is really bad lyric writing, leaving off the rest of a sentence for the sake of a rhyme. Unless he means its better than NOT liking money. Which doesn't make much sense, as I would think someone like Charley would admire someone who isn't materialistic.

To me it's so bad a lyric I have always thought I'm missing something cause how could he (God) writing something so obviously lazy and not good?

Updated On: 12/28/13 at 08:43 PM

I never had a problem with the raisin/liaison lyric only because the character that sings the song is European and she would pronounce the word raisin as "raise-on" which therefore rhymes with liaison.

If you sing it with an American enunciation the rhyme gets lost.

After looking at a few different clips and recordings, I appreciate what the recent Broadway revival of "Night Music" did with the raisin/liaison line in having Mme. Armfeldt seemingly realize the absurdity of ending a line with "raisins" and then having to adjust her pronunciation of "liaisons" to fit. Having the character in on the joke sells the line for me.

The same thing happens in "Phantom" during "Notes" when one is confronted with a "letter [he] wrote" and asks "What is it that we're meant to have wrote? - written?" While I don't think this example works as well- "rhyming" wrote and wrote with one not fitting grammatically, in Sondheim's "Liaisons," when the actor can sell the line is when it works. I've always found it weak until I heard Elaine Stritch absolutely "Stritch" up the line:

"No! Not even figs - raisins. Oh my god: Liai-zins!"

While it may not be the refined Mme. Armfeldt one is used to, it works very well for the actress in the role.

In the link below, she sings it a little less abrasively than the recording I've heard, but still good for the point being made.
Elaine Stritch

I've always been bothered by "What do you leave to your child when you're dead?/Only whatever you put in its head."

I don't know if I'd call it an "objectively weak" lyric but I've always found it clunky, particularly the part where it refers to a child as "it."

Updated On: 12/29/13 at 06:10 PM

Speaking of Shakespeare, I think THE TEMPEST--despite much beautiful poetry--is dramaturgically weak. There is simply no reason left in the script we have (Who knows what was lost along the way?) for Prospero's sudden revelation and reversal.

This does NOT mean I think I am smarter than Shakespeare. Jeeze!

I just wanted to say that I have enjoyed reading this thread, and I cannot believe the immaturity that some well-respected long term posters are displaying within it.

God forbid BWW have an interesting, on-topic discussion without posters being likened to terrible students or being accused of having no imagination.

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Updated On: 12/29/13 at 08:15 PM

Thanks, guys (not that I'm assuming you are talking about my posts).

I consider this sort of critical analysis the highest form of respect. I don't see anyone paying such close attention to any other lyricist.

" 'I don't see anyone paying such close attention to any other lyricist.'

That's the problem right there, considering the superiority of so many others."

I don't understand why this poses a "problem." If there is another lyricist whose lyrics you'd care to discuss, why not start another thread doing so?

Ericmontreal, the point is not that no one is allowed to "have issues" with any lyrics. You're "allowed" to do just about anything.

The point is that all the lyrics complained about here are just fine; the complainers just aren't able or willing to understand why they're fine. Joey has tried to point it out, but no one seems to be listening, preferring to think they're so brilliant, they've found the flaws in the work of a great artist.

I thought I'd been clear about that point earlier.

Guys, I found this picture of After Eight on the Internet:

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...he generalized.

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Here's something that might not have occurred to the long-time posters in question:

Some people just don't like a lyric or rhyme. In their subjective opinion, they might characterize it as "weaker." No one's saying he's not everything you say he is. In most cases, they're not even saying they don't get why he went with that lyric. They're just saying that they don't care for that particular example, that they think something better could have been there. They're not saying it's not great craft. They're just saying they didn't feel that particular example is the best representation of said craft.

newintown, PJ, surely there's at least one Sondheim lyric you don't really care for? Some rhyme that you prefer a little less than the rest? That's all this is -- an exercise in pointing them out, with a thread title designed to foment discussion. No one's claiming to be better at Steve's job, no one's handing him back this lyric with "capable of doing better" written across it, they're just expressing an opinion. And after your bagging on the other posters in this thread, frankly I'd love to hear yours rather than hear any more bashing of people. Opinions about art are by and large subjective, but I can't possibly imagine you like absolutely every lyric he's ever written.

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