#51
Posted: 6/28/09 at 1:14am
And incidentally, it's rather interesting how many straight men have responded to this thread, isn't it!
The gay connection to theater? — Page 3
#52
Posted: 6/28/09 at 6:05am
"but there are gays in other professions, perhaps with less gaudy plumage."
Indeed - that could describe my own. I used to be surprised by how many gay men were accountants. And then I was surprised by how many gay men worked in software development and implementation. Throw Alan Turing into the equation and I've often found myself wondering if there is a gay connection to mathematics.
But, back on-topic, I'd also like to explore the use of the term "manly" in this thread. We seem to recognise that gay men are attracted to the theatre as it provides an environment that allows people to articulate their emotions. But is it really un-manly for a straight man to also want to give expression to his emotions? Society may have conditioned us into believing so but most straight women I know would disagree with this and say a true straight man is one who can articulate his emotions.
It annoys me considerably when straight men are dissed as being effiminate by the supposed true men of this world, as though being intellectually and emotionally articulate is something un-manly and to be ashamed of. Particularly when straight women, who are perhaps the best judges of what a straight man should or should not be, would disagree.
Indeed - that could describe my own. I used to be surprised by how many gay men were accountants. And then I was surprised by how many gay men worked in software development and implementation. Throw Alan Turing into the equation and I've often found myself wondering if there is a gay connection to mathematics.
But, back on-topic, I'd also like to explore the use of the term "manly" in this thread. We seem to recognise that gay men are attracted to the theatre as it provides an environment that allows people to articulate their emotions. But is it really un-manly for a straight man to also want to give expression to his emotions? Society may have conditioned us into believing so but most straight women I know would disagree with this and say a true straight man is one who can articulate his emotions.
It annoys me considerably when straight men are dissed as being effiminate by the supposed true men of this world, as though being intellectually and emotionally articulate is something un-manly and to be ashamed of. Particularly when straight women, who are perhaps the best judges of what a straight man should or should not be, would disagree.
#53
Posted: 6/28/09 at 9:22am
Let's face it, when women are looking for boyfriends they are looking for guys wearing baseball caps, not for guys absolutely excited to see Angela Lansbury from the front row.
Not all of them.
But is it really un-manly for a straight man to also want to give expression to his emotions? Society may have conditioned us into believing so but most straight women I know would disagree with this and say a true straight man is one who can articulate his emotions.
Of course that's true, but I think it is also true that a lot of straight men grew up believing that they shouldn't show emotion, and they either don't believe women when they say that, or it's so out of habit that they can't, or they care more about what their buddies think than what women think.
Not all of them.
But is it really un-manly for a straight man to also want to give expression to his emotions? Society may have conditioned us into believing so but most straight women I know would disagree with this and say a true straight man is one who can articulate his emotions.
Of course that's true, but I think it is also true that a lot of straight men grew up believing that they shouldn't show emotion, and they either don't believe women when they say that, or it's so out of habit that they can't, or they care more about what their buddies think than what women think.
Nothing matters but knowing nothing matters. ~ Wicked
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
"He's a tramp, but I love him."
Everything in life is only for now. ~ Avenue Q
There is no future, there is no past. I live this moment as my last. ~ Rent
#54
Posted: 6/28/09 at 11:21am
I think we should also temper our thoughts on this issue to consider how 50, 100, 500 or more years ago, the theatre was popular entertainment for the masses. There was nothing gay about going to see a play or musical. There was a time when straight men looked forward to taking their wife or girlfriend to the latest Cole Porter musical.
Perhaps only in more recent decades, when we've come to know more about the sexuality of actors and playwrights and creative staff, when the subject matter of plays and musicals have included gay themes, when the audience is more free to be openly gay, it's only then that theatre (and ballet and opera) has been seen as being a gay thing. And because of such, more gay people have gravitated to it, just as gay people gravitate towards large cities.
People in creative Arts fields are perhaps more accepting of gay people because the nature of the Arts is expressing and creating things that are new, often by people who are themselves different from the masses.
And perhaps there has been a rejection (in modern years) by Conservatives, who see new ideas as being antithetical to the tradition (and control) they want to maintain.
But I think gay people are (and have been) in every walk of life. So whether it's building bridges or fighting wars, herding cattle or hitting home runs, gay people are there. They might not be as noticeable as the more colorfully plumed gays in Arts and Entertainment, but they're there.
A greater concern may be that straight people are being turned off theatre. There's nothing gay about singing and dancing, or expressing emotion--straight people, don't be afraid!
Perhaps only in more recent decades, when we've come to know more about the sexuality of actors and playwrights and creative staff, when the subject matter of plays and musicals have included gay themes, when the audience is more free to be openly gay, it's only then that theatre (and ballet and opera) has been seen as being a gay thing. And because of such, more gay people have gravitated to it, just as gay people gravitate towards large cities.
People in creative Arts fields are perhaps more accepting of gay people because the nature of the Arts is expressing and creating things that are new, often by people who are themselves different from the masses.
And perhaps there has been a rejection (in modern years) by Conservatives, who see new ideas as being antithetical to the tradition (and control) they want to maintain.
But I think gay people are (and have been) in every walk of life. So whether it's building bridges or fighting wars, herding cattle or hitting home runs, gay people are there. They might not be as noticeable as the more colorfully plumed gays in Arts and Entertainment, but they're there.
A greater concern may be that straight people are being turned off theatre. There's nothing gay about singing and dancing, or expressing emotion--straight people, don't be afraid!
Coach Bob knew it all along: you've got to get obsessed and stay obsessed. You have to keep passing the open windows. (John Irving, The Hotel New Hampshire)
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 11:21 AM
#55
Posted: 6/28/09 at 12:06pm
Er... please don't bring politics into this. There are plenty of conservatives, myself included, who love theatre and creativity and "new ideas."
Anyway, I agree that it helps if you grew up with theatre, as in seeing shows or even just listening to recordings.
Anyway, I agree that it helps if you grew up with theatre, as in seeing shows or even just listening to recordings.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#56
Posted: 6/28/09 at 2:41pm
I appreciate some of the above comments where some of you contend that women are more accepting of men who are on the sophisticated and emotionally-in-tune-with-themselves side. When you find such a woman, point her out to the single men on this board.
I'm not necessarily blaming women - their taste in men is just as culturally cultivated as anyone else's. The culture is the real culprit. I just find such a thing to be wishful thinking, or a case of some women pretending to be more open-minded than they actually are in order to ease their guilt - "I don't mind a sensitive guy," "I don't need a guy who's tall," etc. It just doesn't happen like that. Say one thing, do another. I even read a piece of feminist writing on the Internet, of questionable note, of course, that basically said that the smart modern woman should marry the nerd and have an affair with the football player. I think that's very telling.
For me, though, it might have something to do with the fact that the majority of women I meet are on a college campus that has left me so jaded. :) Maybe things change a little as the years march on and women are more accepting of different kinds of men? In high school, though, I thought this rise in maturity would occur in college. I could not have been more incorrect.
One thing I'd like to say, though, and I'm not sure how far I'm straying from topic but I do apologize if it's a great deal: I have a major problem with how gay men are portrayed in the instances of mainstream culture I've witnessed. Not only do I think it's unfair to gay men, but I think it speaks to an overall negative hostility toward men in general.
I would cite "Sex and the City" as a prime example of it. I know it's supposed to be fluffy female-targeted television. Nonetheless, the message rings clear - straight men are this way, gay men are that way. There is no in-between without some major, judgmental flinch of the eye. And I find that because of this, in order to accomplish some strange, unfounded goal, there is total one-dimensionality foisted upon both kinds of men, and this continues beyond this television show. Gay men are demeaned (I remember one episode where Carrie says of her one gay pal, 'Yeah, so I called him up, I knew *he'd* be free tonight' - what the hell?) and good straight men are given room to be some combination of three things and three things only - perfect-looking, strong and silent.
So, to conclude for now, I think it is no surprise that straight men shy away from things like theatre. The judgment is indeed huge. I think a tremendous proportion of my generation of women has been taught what to think of men through "Sex and the City," "Will and Grace" and the like, and I think the messages are very poor ones.
Just because the overall mindset of male and female relationships has changed in the past 50 years does not mean we have evolved or grown in acceptance of one another. I think the culture has caused things to mutate. We have become so superficial, and in more ways than one. We only scratch the surface. Often, it's all we care to scratch.
George Carlin: "...just like the fitness craze now. America has lost its soul, so now it's going to save its body! Doesn't work that way, folks." :)
I'm not necessarily blaming women - their taste in men is just as culturally cultivated as anyone else's. The culture is the real culprit. I just find such a thing to be wishful thinking, or a case of some women pretending to be more open-minded than they actually are in order to ease their guilt - "I don't mind a sensitive guy," "I don't need a guy who's tall," etc. It just doesn't happen like that. Say one thing, do another. I even read a piece of feminist writing on the Internet, of questionable note, of course, that basically said that the smart modern woman should marry the nerd and have an affair with the football player. I think that's very telling.
For me, though, it might have something to do with the fact that the majority of women I meet are on a college campus that has left me so jaded. :) Maybe things change a little as the years march on and women are more accepting of different kinds of men? In high school, though, I thought this rise in maturity would occur in college. I could not have been more incorrect.
One thing I'd like to say, though, and I'm not sure how far I'm straying from topic but I do apologize if it's a great deal: I have a major problem with how gay men are portrayed in the instances of mainstream culture I've witnessed. Not only do I think it's unfair to gay men, but I think it speaks to an overall negative hostility toward men in general.
I would cite "Sex and the City" as a prime example of it. I know it's supposed to be fluffy female-targeted television. Nonetheless, the message rings clear - straight men are this way, gay men are that way. There is no in-between without some major, judgmental flinch of the eye. And I find that because of this, in order to accomplish some strange, unfounded goal, there is total one-dimensionality foisted upon both kinds of men, and this continues beyond this television show. Gay men are demeaned (I remember one episode where Carrie says of her one gay pal, 'Yeah, so I called him up, I knew *he'd* be free tonight' - what the hell?) and good straight men are given room to be some combination of three things and three things only - perfect-looking, strong and silent.
So, to conclude for now, I think it is no surprise that straight men shy away from things like theatre. The judgment is indeed huge. I think a tremendous proportion of my generation of women has been taught what to think of men through "Sex and the City," "Will and Grace" and the like, and I think the messages are very poor ones.
Just because the overall mindset of male and female relationships has changed in the past 50 years does not mean we have evolved or grown in acceptance of one another. I think the culture has caused things to mutate. We have become so superficial, and in more ways than one. We only scratch the surface. Often, it's all we care to scratch.
George Carlin: "...just like the fitness craze now. America has lost its soul, so now it's going to save its body! Doesn't work that way, folks." :)
2010
Feb. 28 - Looped, Feb. 28 - Next to Normal, March 4 - Hair, March 11 - A Little Night Music, March 24 - Time Stands Still, April 6 - La Cage Aux Folles, April 10 - Anyone Can Whistle (City Center), April 10 - Looped, May 9 - Enron, May 15 - A Little Night Music, May 15 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Little Night Music, June 20 - A Little Night Music, June 23 - Red, June 23 - Sondheim on Sondheim, July 13 - A Little Night Music, July 18 - The Grand Manner (Lincoln Center)
#57
Posted: 6/28/09 at 5:19pm
wow, Rudy, that Carlin quote just gave me pause...
...and blew my mind...
... fascinating thought. Truly.
P
...and blew my mind...
... fascinating thought. Truly.
P
#58
Posted: 6/28/09 at 5:35pm
This is probably a bit redundant but as a straight woman I wish I could find a guy into the same things I am. Theatre is my main passion at the moment and it's often a nightmare trying to find someone to go with (hence I go alone a lot!) and certainly I don't have ANY male friends really into the theatre, gay or straight, and have really struggled to find men I'm attracted to in recent years.
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 05:35 PM
#59
Posted: 6/28/09 at 5:38pm
Frapperia, yes, certainly some, not all. :)
2010
Feb. 28 - Looped, Feb. 28 - Next to Normal, March 4 - Hair, March 11 - A Little Night Music, March 24 - Time Stands Still, April 6 - La Cage Aux Folles, April 10 - Anyone Can Whistle (City Center), April 10 - Looped, May 9 - Enron, May 15 - A Little Night Music, May 15 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Little Night Music, June 20 - A Little Night Music, June 23 - Red, June 23 - Sondheim on Sondheim, July 13 - A Little Night Music, July 18 - The Grand Manner (Lincoln Center)
#60
Posted: 6/28/09 at 5:41pm
Wow, you make it sound like straight actors (who are the theater-appreciating type I find myself most often connecting with, but, I guess what I'm saying includes other theater professionals and fans, too) don't exist. And you make it sound like you have to go to the theater with a man to go with someone. Sure, you want the person you're dating to appreciate the things that make you tick, but, yikes. (And getting involved with actors is NOT the glamour-fest it's cracked up to be.) Not to threadjack, but, sorry, that just really made me go, "... seriously???"
A work of art is an invitation to love.
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 05:41 PM
#61
Posted: 6/28/09 at 5:49pm
No no, you misunderstand me! I didn't mean that at all. I phrased badly. I just meant more generally it's a nightmare finding theatre companions, and even more so finding blokes into theatre - which is something I really love and would love to share a passion for with a partner, but have never managed to connect with a guy over theatre. I know these men exist, I just can't find them where I live!
...I hope this makes sense, I'm running on minus energy here so my normal levels of clarity are dangerously low. I think I must have edited this about five billion times and still I can't quite figure it out.
Rudy2 - you caught that pre-edit, huh? I realised I was misunderstanding your post due to exhaustion so clipped it out. :)
...I hope this makes sense, I'm running on minus energy here so my normal levels of clarity are dangerously low. I think I must have edited this about five billion times and still I can't quite figure it out.
Rudy2 - you caught that pre-edit, huh? I realised I was misunderstanding your post due to exhaustion so clipped it out. :)
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 05:49 PM
#62
Posted: 6/28/09 at 6:01pm
So only star-f*cking types date actors? 
Great. The only actors in the world are the famous ones.
And yeah, it makes sense; for what it's worth, this is hardly empirical evidence, but, I've found that most of my straight male friends who are into theater are working in the field, or a related one, somehow. Of course, so do I, so, that's the main way I meet people -- if you work in... I don't know, investment banking, then, yeah, I get see the predicament.
A work of art is an invitation to love.
Great. The only actors in the world are the famous ones. And yeah, it makes sense; for what it's worth, this is hardly empirical evidence, but, I've found that most of my straight male friends who are into theater are working in the field, or a related one, somehow. Of course, so do I, so, that's the main way I meet people -- if you work in... I don't know, investment banking, then, yeah, I get see the predicament.
#63
Posted: 6/28/09 at 6:04pm
i'm straight. you want my number? ;]
BROADWAY IMPACT!
TAKE ACTION! EQUALITY!
http://www.broadwayimpact.com/
BROADWAY IMPACT!
TAKE ACTION! EQUALITY!
http://www.broadwayimpact.com/
#64
Posted: 6/28/09 at 6:13pm
I'd like your number, gerb. ;D it's tough finding a guy into the same stuff I am!
When I see the phrase "the ____ estate", I imagine a vast mansion in the country full of monocled men and high-collared women receiving letters about productions across the country and doing spit-takes at whatever they contain.
-Kad
#65
Posted: 6/28/09 at 6:19pm
Of course, no worries. :)
2010
Feb. 28 - Looped, Feb. 28 - Next to Normal, March 4 - Hair, March 11 - A Little Night Music, March 24 - Time Stands Still, April 6 - La Cage Aux Folles, April 10 - Anyone Can Whistle (City Center), April 10 - Looped, May 9 - Enron, May 15 - A Little Night Music, May 15 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Little Night Music, June 20 - A Little Night Music, June 23 - Red, June 23 - Sondheim on Sondheim, July 13 - A Little Night Music, July 18 - The Grand Manner (Lincoln Center)
#66
Posted: 6/28/09 at 7:25pm
So, to jump off another fascinating conversation going on in the Rock of Ages love thread...
It has been said that Rock of Ages is for the "straight dude." Do we feel like that has been true? Do straight guys that don't otherwise see theatre come and see Rock of Ages? Is that the only show they're comfortable seeing? Is RoA getting a different demographic than other shows? And if so, is this because of the beer, the strip scenes, or the rock music? Or something else entirely? And should we be pursuing this form of "theatre," to get straight guys more comfortable on Broadway?
Just some thoughts to ponder.
FYI, I personally am another straight guy who loves theatre.
Rudy, let's be friends...and I'll go with you, frapperia!
And I was drawn to Rock of Ages by the reviews and Tony noms, and then horribly disappointed and appalled by the thoughtlessness of the whole production and the objectification of women in particular. And I know as a straight guy I'm not supposed to be be turned off by that, but I was. So was the girl I was with, and the 18 year-old straight guy I know who also saw it. Loved the music though!
It has been said that Rock of Ages is for the "straight dude." Do we feel like that has been true? Do straight guys that don't otherwise see theatre come and see Rock of Ages? Is that the only show they're comfortable seeing? Is RoA getting a different demographic than other shows? And if so, is this because of the beer, the strip scenes, or the rock music? Or something else entirely? And should we be pursuing this form of "theatre," to get straight guys more comfortable on Broadway?
Just some thoughts to ponder.
FYI, I personally am another straight guy who loves theatre.
Rudy, let's be friends...and I'll go with you, frapperia!
And I was drawn to Rock of Ages by the reviews and Tony noms, and then horribly disappointed and appalled by the thoughtlessness of the whole production and the objectification of women in particular. And I know as a straight guy I'm not supposed to be be turned off by that, but I was. So was the girl I was with, and the 18 year-old straight guy I know who also saw it. Loved the music though!
#67
Posted: 6/28/09 at 7:32pm
^ Sounds good, I'll send you a PM later.
I haven't seen Rock of Ages, but I saw it empty out after "Accent on Youth" and yes, the demographics were definitely slanted. A lot of the guys looked like they belonged at frat parties when they came out. The desperate-to-be-seen-as-straight wallet chains and belt loop keychain grips (probably butchered whatever the hell the name of that thing is - you know the dinguses who go everywhere with 25 keys, probably only needing 5 at most) were all present.
That said, I might take my one friend to see this because he grew up in the 80s and is more of a music guy than a theatre guy. I bet he'd love it, and even without a story I do like musical nostalgia trips.
I haven't seen Rock of Ages, but I saw it empty out after "Accent on Youth" and yes, the demographics were definitely slanted. A lot of the guys looked like they belonged at frat parties when they came out. The desperate-to-be-seen-as-straight wallet chains and belt loop keychain grips (probably butchered whatever the hell the name of that thing is - you know the dinguses who go everywhere with 25 keys, probably only needing 5 at most) were all present.
That said, I might take my one friend to see this because he grew up in the 80s and is more of a music guy than a theatre guy. I bet he'd love it, and even without a story I do like musical nostalgia trips.
2010
Feb. 28 - Looped, Feb. 28 - Next to Normal, March 4 - Hair, March 11 - A Little Night Music, March 24 - Time Stands Still, April 6 - La Cage Aux Folles, April 10 - Anyone Can Whistle (City Center), April 10 - Looped, May 9 - Enron, May 15 - A Little Night Music, May 15 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Behanding In Spokane, May 30 - A Little Night Music, June 20 - A Little Night Music, June 23 - Red, June 23 - Sondheim on Sondheim, July 13 - A Little Night Music, July 18 - The Grand Manner (Lincoln Center)
#68
Posted: 6/28/09 at 8:03pm
And you make it sound like you have to go to the theater with a man to go with someone.
Yeah, that stood out to me as well. Maybe the problem isn't that so few straight men like theatre, but that you have to have a boyfriend who has the same "passion at the moment" as you.
MrJNLong, I think it's interesting you found the objectification of women in Rock of Ages disgusting. That didn't even occur to me until I read your post. I'm female and had no more issue with Rock of Ages than I did with Gypsy.
Yeah, that stood out to me as well. Maybe the problem isn't that so few straight men like theatre, but that you have to have a boyfriend who has the same "passion at the moment" as you.
MrJNLong, I think it's interesting you found the objectification of women in Rock of Ages disgusting. That didn't even occur to me until I read your post. I'm female and had no more issue with Rock of Ages than I did with Gypsy.
Like a firework unexploded
Wanting life but never knowing how
Wanting life but never knowing how
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 08:03 PM
#69
Posted: 6/28/09 at 9:29pm
ROA gets the same audience JERSEY BOYS gets, which isn't the same audience XANADU got.
Just a generalization, the people who listened to Olivia Newton-John and ELO are not the same people who listened to the Four Seasons and Poison.
Just a generalization, the people who listened to Olivia Newton-John and ELO are not the same people who listened to the Four Seasons and Poison.
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 09:29 PM
#70
Posted: 6/28/09 at 9:59pm
I would love to post this thread on some site that is far beyond the world of "theaaattttherrrrr", New York actors and showbiz....any normal person would think this crap came from people from Mars (or maybe...Uranus). This is a true freak show.
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 09:59 PM
#71
Posted: 6/28/09 at 10:21pm
Don't mind if I do with the popcorn, adamgreer. I brought Snow Caps for us all to share.
kchenofan's computer is broken right now. This is her fridge. Now, you can leave a message, but say it slowly, so I can write it on a post-it note and stick it to myself.
#72
Posted: 6/28/09 at 11:07pm
It's been years since I've posted, but I find this topic to be very interesting.
I'm 17 years old and fell in love with theatre long before I realized I was gay. While I do fit into the stereotype of being a theatrically obsessed homosexual male, I think my path into that stereotype was different from most. I almost think that it was my exceptional connection to the art of all kinds of theatre, and therefore my connection to those affiliated with the theatre community, that subconsciously presented the possibly of being homosexual to me. I went through puberty in a theatrical community. In other words, being gay didn't draw me to theatre, theatre drew me into being gay. I know that this is a somewhat staunch opinion saying that many believe that homosexuality is characteristic that is embedded in someone since birth, but I don't believe this to be the case. If I hadn't fallen in love with theatre as a toddler and had followed the paths of my siblings and attended a normal school instead of an arts magnet, I don't think I would be gay.
Just a conclusion that I've come to in my short time on this planet...
I'm 17 years old and fell in love with theatre long before I realized I was gay. While I do fit into the stereotype of being a theatrically obsessed homosexual male, I think my path into that stereotype was different from most. I almost think that it was my exceptional connection to the art of all kinds of theatre, and therefore my connection to those affiliated with the theatre community, that subconsciously presented the possibly of being homosexual to me. I went through puberty in a theatrical community. In other words, being gay didn't draw me to theatre, theatre drew me into being gay. I know that this is a somewhat staunch opinion saying that many believe that homosexuality is characteristic that is embedded in someone since birth, but I don't believe this to be the case. If I hadn't fallen in love with theatre as a toddler and had followed the paths of my siblings and attended a normal school instead of an arts magnet, I don't think I would be gay.
Just a conclusion that I've come to in my short time on this planet...
#73
Posted: 6/28/09 at 11:18pm
I dont get it musical theatre is dance,singing,and acting at once but if it was all seperated its not considered gay.
Dancers/dancing aren't thought gay by straight people. Singer alone are not thought gay by straight people. (ex.Micheal Jackson)Actors alone aren't thought gay by straight people. (ex. Eddie Murphy)
But why is it thought gay if everthing was combined together.
Its the same thing you do everyday yoo do but just all combined together.
It should be thought as talent not gay it's talent.
Dancers/dancing aren't thought gay by straight people. Singer alone are not thought gay by straight people. (ex.Micheal Jackson)Actors alone aren't thought gay by straight people. (ex. Eddie Murphy)
But why is it thought gay if everthing was combined together.
Its the same thing you do everyday yoo do but just all combined together.
It should be thought as talent not gay it's talent.
#74
Posted: 6/28/09 at 11:30pm
Actually, Eddie Murphy is a singer as well.
Jimmy, what are you doing here in the middle of the night? It's almost 9 PM!
#75
Posted: 6/28/09 at 11:32pm
frapperia, I get what you're saying. I'm a straight female who is crazy about sports and loves theater. There are plenty of men who love sports, but I have yet to find a guy who loves theater.
Updated On: 6/28/09 at 11:32 PM
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