Touchy licensing question -- need help- Page 2

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 7:35pm

One thing people are forgetting: The "Thriller" choreography is copyrighted. I remember hearing fairly recently about how the choreographer for the original music video still gets royalties off that song. Even if inserting a "Thriller" dance break to the existing Oz music could be considered artistic license, if they are recreating the "Thriller" choreography (which I'm sure they are, otherwise, what's the point of doing "Thriller"?) then they are violating SOMEONE'S copyright.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 7:40pm

Good point^, indeed.


To the op...I'm not sure what I would do about it, either -- to be honest.

BTW: In addition to cease and desist possiblilities, TW would likely refuse to license more works for "x" amount of years. IF they found out.

[finishmyhat]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 8:00pm

To the people who stated that it's an artistic interpretation, that is a scapegoat for self indulgent members of this community.

When a show is licensed, you have NO artistic right to change anything about the show. You are LEGALLY BOUND to present the material as written. If you don't like it, you can get sued, and many people do. Unless direct permission is obtained from the rights holders, the authors, and sometimes the original production staff, you have to perform a show as licensed.

That also means no cutting of characters, music, scenes as well. The same goes for additions. Unless permission is directly granted.

Choreography, especially anything of Michael Jackson's, is copyrighted. In order to duplicate it, you have to pay royalties.

This high school is breaking many laws and they SHOULD be stopped. And as for people just getting a cease and desist, you should talk to some high schools in Southern California who've decided that Grease is better with the movie script and songs. Paramount slapped one with a $20,000.00 lawsuit about 8 years back and it folded their performing arts department.

If you want to do Wizard of Oz meets Michael Jackson, contact the Frank L. Baum estate and get the rights to re-adapt the story yourself.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 8:08pm

^ Or just do The Wiz.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 8:23pm

I mean, I know there's an exception to copyright for parody, but this isn't parody from what I've gathered.

Of course, I'm in the tough position of apparently being the only person realizing this is bad. I don't want to be the whistle blower, because honestly, I don't trust that if I went to my principal he'd keep my name out of it. An anonymous note? That just seems really underhanded to me.

As I said, I don't get along with the director, so I can't go to her. I also feel terrible about doing something because the kids seem pretty excited about the whole thing.

[LuPonatic]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 11:22pm

jasonf, all you are going to accomplish is upsetting the students in the production if your meddling makes things harder on them, or gets the show canceled, or causes them to take out a section they obviously like or they wouldn't be talking about it. Nobody is gonna care about your high school and what choreography they do in the show. Seriously, tams whitmark is not gonna go out of their way to come see your high school's production of The Wizard of Oz.

I would say the scenario is akin to going 56 mph in a 55mph zone. It is TECHNICALLY illegal, but no one gives a rat's patootie that you are doing it!

[inlovewithjerryherman]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 11:28pm

we actually had an "inspired by Thriller" dance break in the Jitterbug in our high school's production of the Wizard of Oz that I did 8 or so years ago.

Yes, the choreo is copyrighted, but if all you do is the scraggly arm thing to the actual dance music, I think it'll be fine. If they recreate the WHOLE dance though, completely different story.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/3/11 at 11:53pm

If you want to do Wizard of Oz meets Michael Jackson, contact the Frank L. Baum estate and get the rights to re-adapt the story yourself.

That's L. Frank Baum, not Frank L. Baum. The "L" stands for Lyman, his first name not his middle name.

Actually, the copyright on the L. Frank Baum material has slipped into public domain. What's protected by copyright now is the film adaptation.

The writers of Wicked did not have to license anything from the Baum estate. What they had to do was be very careful about any references to the film. Since Universal was one of the main producers of Wicked, there was a whole barrage of Universal lawyers combing the book and lyrics to make sure there was nothing there for the Warner lawyers to sink their fangs into.

But the Baum estate gets not a penny.

I think jasonf is simply poking a hornet's nest. He is trying to be the Sue Sylvester of his local high school.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 12:05am

"If they are doing the show the way I THINK they are, I just can't see how it's ethical."

"but this isn't parody from what I've gathered."

"As I said, I don't get along with the director, so I can't go to her."

I think these are some key sentences. From what I have inferred reading through this thread jasonf has not seen and has no first hand direct knowledge of what is happening. His information appears to be coming second hand from what he is hearing through his students. He has admitted that he doesn't even know which script they are using. If I was in this position and had that much concern I would find some way to actually see and hear for myself what is going on, rather than blowing the whistle on something that might not even be a case of a whistle that needs to be blown.

I agree with PalJoey, this sounds like somebody trying to stir up trouble for the sake of stirring up trouble.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 12:16am

Leave it alone.

The most that I've ever seen happen to a school is that they get a cease and desist letter. Unless your show is running for more than a month, then, most chances are that the powers-that-be will never even hear about it.

[wonderwaiter]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 12:48am

I think Caborob had the most insightful post in this thread (which seemed to be conveniently ignored). At first glance inserting a Thriller reference into the Wizard of Oz seems tacky and artless, but there are moments where it could work, provided it is an "homage" - as was previously mentioned. Since the OP doesn't know which version of the show has been licensed and doesn't know the exact context in which it is being used, it really is just a matter of pointless panty-bunching. It sounds like you'll do yourself more harm than the perceived good by saying anything.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 9:34am

Here is the other issue with it that really concerns me. We are pretty close to New York, so we have parents that work on Broadway. I also know we have parents that work as entertainment lawyers. The chance of one coming in and seeing that what they are doing isn't legal is not low at all. One person seeing it and saying something is all it takes.

I know in some industries if you see or hear something wrong, you need to report it. I don't know if this is the case with the parents, but if it is, it could become a huge problem.

Since there is a question, I am going to go bring it up to my principal and let him make sure everything is by the book. If they are using the song Thriller without permission, it could cost the school a LOT of money, and the last thing I want to see is our arts program cancelled. Wouldn't it be better to have them cut a scene and have a couple kids disappointed than to lose the entire program?

I would love to know how trying to ensure that the performing arts program doesn't get into trouble is being a Sue Sylvester at all.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 9:40am

That's exactly what Sue would ask.

Only it would be funny.

Posted: 2/4/11 at 10:36am

Oh Jason. Admit it. You are just KVELLING over this! All you need is the green make up and some flying monkeys- I assume you already have the black dress and hat. Tell me that you've never taunted that director with "I'll get you! And your little SHOW, too!"

You are going to show them! You should have been directing this show! You're the only one with artistic integrity there! The law protects folks from shows that bite! You'll bring a suit and take their whole farm...er, SCHOOL! you brought along a basket to take the show in so it doesn't bite again.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 11:33am

Honestly, and Joe, I know you're being facetious, it couldn't be further from the truth. I have no interest in directing the big shows here because the school has a policy of including every single kid who tries out in the show. That means juggling something like 300 kids at once, and I really have little desire to do that. I do smaller shows on the "off-season" and am perfectly content with that. I've even told my principal multiple times (because he's asked me about it) that I won't do it while that stipulation is in place. I don't get along with the person who directs the shows, but I admire her for taking that on.

Artistic quality aside, I think the kids SHOULD have a drama program. Considering the political atmosphere in my state towards education, the last thing an already tenuous program needs is to suddenly receive a huge fine or injunction because the director did something illegal, either knowingly or not.

My point in posting here was to find out if what is being done is legal. I've since found out that they are planning a full five minute production number using Thriller. Clearly, without permission from the licensing company and the MJ estate, this is not legal. I don't know whether or not the director got the proper permission for these things, though I would suspect not.

I did go speak to my principal about it this morning. I said very clearly that the only reason I bring it up is I don't want the school exposed to possible fines or trouble. The last thing I want is for the kids not to get to do the show. However, yes, I do think that they SHOULD cut the Thriller number, even if the kids love it, if they don't have the proper permission. 1)It's a terrible lesson to teach the kids, that it's ok to just do that, 2)yeah, the odds are against the school getting in any trouble, but why take the chance?

He said he'd check into it and make sure all the correct permission was obtained. If not, then he'll have to deal with it. If so, then there's no harm done.

Maybe it didn't matter in the big picture, but maybe I saved the school a huge headache. I don't know, but if someone HAD been alerted to what was happening and I hadn't said anything, I'd feel awful.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 11:41am

To be fair, the director probably doesn't even know that the choreography is copyrighted. It doesn't occur to many people that choreography can be plagiarized, especially since so many people do it all the time ("Thriller" being the obvious Exhibit A).

That does not mean it's okay. Ignorance is no excuse, and while the kids may be disappointed, it's an important lesson for them to learn.

True, most of the time, these things happen in school productions and no one says a word, likely because the licensing company never find out about it. That doesn't make it legal. And because of your location and circumstances, in this case, it is likely that someone will find out and the school could get into worse trouble.

I'm on your side with this one, jasonf.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 12:29pm

"I'd feel awful, just AWFUL!"

[ggersten]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 1:21pm

I'm with paljoey on this one, jasonf. Perhaps your motives really are pure and just about the school - but your statements about not liking the director or the school policy certainly give the impression that there is nothing you'd like better than to see the director removed and the policy changed. The "Thriller" dance was probably inserted to give more kids a chance to do something on stage, instead of just standing around. You'd like to see smaller casts - and tighter control - so your motives are suspect - just like Sue Sylvester's.

Indeed, you best option was to approach the director and raise your concerns with the director first - before going above the director to the school principal. The director would have told you what was actually happening instead of rumors from students and the director could ahve told you what rights had been obtained - or the director could have said thanks for the information and the director would take steps to make sure everything was on the up and up. But, instead, you went to the director's boss.

[Moneyspider]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 1:30pm

I remember as a kid seeing another school's production of WoOz with all sorts of additions, including Toto falling in love with a dog in the Emerald City and singing "puppy love" to her. The school was right in west Los Angeles too.

[millie_dillmount]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 1:45pm

"I'm with paljoey on this one, jasonf. Perhaps your motives really are pure and just about the school - but your statements about not liking the director or the school policy certainly give the impression that there is nothing you'd like better than to see the director removed and the policy changed."

Actually, the fact that jasonf brought this up to the principal BEFORE the actual performance might have actually saved the director's job. If he really wanted to see her lose her job, then he might as well have not said anything at all and risk possibly getting in legal trouble. That may have cost the director her job, especially if the school could have lost its arts program.

Anyways, there was probably a good chance that no one would have ever found out, but better safe than sorry. Besides, a dance break of "Thriller" during the Wizard of Oz? No thanks.

[trentsketch]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 2:05pm

jasonf, you were in a difficult position. It's one I've been in before, only I was actually working as a music director for the school making lots of unauthorized changes. And, yes, it was also a close enough to NYC school to have students directly connected to licensing companies. I went to the director herself to express my issues and when I was told "who cares," I went to the principal who made her care. Unsurprisingly, I wasn't contacted the next time she needed a music director, but I also know she hasn't made such severe unauthorized changes since then. I make it a point to see her school's shows to be sure.

I'm willing to overlook very minor changes--a tiny one or two line part changing from a he to a she or cutting some scene change music real short to speed up a show when the music isn't needed--but not throwing random stuff in. If you can't afford to do a show the way it's written, or aren't allowed to because the cast is too small, you need to do another show. There is no shortage of fun, interesting large ensemble musicals perfect for high schools. I'm loving the local area wave of Urinetown and All Shook Up productions; plenty of room for large ensembles plus many named characters with something fun to do onstage.

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 2:44pm

Thank you for those of you who understand. This was not an easy decision or position to be in. I'll let you know if I find out if anything happens.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 3:03pm

I think it's funny that you think just because someone has worked or works on Broadway, that automatically means they care about something inserted (or allegedly inserted) into a school production.

[TheatreDiva90016]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 3:49pm

^^^
I thought the same thing.

And I for one just think you need to stay out of it. It doesn't concern you at all.

If the director screws it up for the kids, it's her fault, and her fault alone.

Besides, maybe it'll will teach them all a life lesson if they get called on the carpet.


Here's the big question...
How many performances are they doing?

Updated On: 2/4/11 at 03:49 PM

[jasonf]

Posted: 2/4/11 at 4:11pm

I think they're doing five performances.