Unpopular theatre opinions — Page 5

Wow, Alex, I don't know what the "popular opinion" is, but I could not disagree more, re: LIGHT or FLOYD. Your objections to the plot might be entirely fair in the real world, but I'm not sure musical characters (or tragic or comic characters) are meant to be evaluated so literally.

You remind me of the bitter complaints that Evan Hansen isn't punished "enough".

I find Clara's disability vague enough in the show that I don't approach her situation so clinically. Might we not also complain that Maria Rainer--though not mentally impaired--hardly has the experience necessary to make a lifelong commitment to a man twice her age after only the experience of a convent and a brief stint as a nanny? How dare that old man take advantage of her like that!

(You also make it sound as if the mother pushes Clara into marriage, when my memory of the show is merely that she withdraws her objection; but that hardly seems worth a quarrel.)

Anyhow, agree to disagree and all that. I don't mean to dismiss your opinion; I'm just expressing my surprise.

GavestonPS said: "(You also make it sound as if the mother pushes Clara into marriage, when my memory of the show is merely that she withdraws her objection;but that hardly seems worth a quarrel.)"

At the very end of the show, right before Margaret's last song, Clara has cold feet, and Margaret encourages her.

I can understand where you're coming from regarding how musical theatre characters aren't supposed to be interpreted so literally. What I gathered from the show is that the authors are asking you to take the story and characters more literally than usual, by the immersive aspect of the Italian language and the darker subject matter.

Comparing it to Dear Evan Hansen, the argument that he isn't punished enough is flawed because his punishment fits the conflict in the show: his opening up to other people was built on a lie, and he lost all the progress he made when the lie was revealed.

With Light in the Piazza, Clara is doomed to live as a child in an adult woman's body, unable to fully understand the feelings she has for Fabrizio. The conflict is that in the reality of the story, she probably isn't prepared for marriage and a family, no matter how badly she wants it. The resolution is that... she just does it anyway, and the show ends before we see any real consequences. It just felt like sloppy storytelling.

Again, usually I agree with you on how you're aren't supposed to take musical characters as completely literal. It's said that plays are understood through your brain, but musicals are understood through your heart. The problem (and it may have just been with the production I saw) was that Fabrizio and Clara didn't have much chemistry. If I'm not invested in the love story, I have nothing to do but start applying reasons to the plot.

Hairspray's pastiche of doo-wop and motown is not very good.

Alex Kulak2 said: "The production I saw had a lot of issues (poor sound design, bland direction, iffy performances), but even if all that was flawless, the show is fundamentally broken.

A good 40% of the show is in unsubtitled Italian, and almost impossible to follow when watching on stage. I think the writersthought it would be like opera, where the performances would be enough to carry across the emotion of the scene, but it really wasn't. If they're going for a deep naturalism (a kind of linguistic loneliness, a laLost In Translation), but then they completely throw that out the window when Fabrizio's mother breaks immersion and speaks English because "I have to tell you what's going on" (and totally not because Craig Lucas couldn't figure out how to put an English-speaker in the scene).

I really dislike Adam Guettel's score(not just in this, in Floyd Collins too). I get that it can't be expected for an American lyricist to write brilliant lyrics in Italian, but why are the English lyrics just as crummy?

Giuseppe asks "Was she sweet as she looks?"

And Franca also wants to know

In her own special way

Not only does this lyric not scan very well in the music, but it doesn't have anything to do with the characterizations of Giuseppe and Franca leading up to that moment.

The music is entirely atonal, and not in a good way. It feels like Adam Guettel wanted itto sound grand and symphonic, but also neurotic and complicated, but he didn't realize those two extremes are near-incongruous.

The few songs that do sound pleasant to the ear are completely out of place, like the title song for instance. The music completely betrays the scene that just took place. Clara was slapped by her mother, the only person who has protected her all her life has assaulted her and forbid her from seeing her lover, and she sings a major-key, flowy, Disney Princess song. I heard the opening of it, and half-expected Clara to start singing "I wanna be where the people are..."

Ignoring all of that, the thing that makes this show fundamentally broken is the plot. Theresolutionto this romantic musical's plot is a woman allowing a near-total stranger to rape her mentally disabled daughter. I know some people try to rationalize this by saying the show's plot is really about Margaret coming to terms with how her daughter is capable enough to understand love and marriage, but that is not what is in the text of the play. The script, lyrics, and multiple stagings of it make it very clear that Clara is around the mental age of twelve, and the plot of the show is Margaret not agreeing with her husband on how dangerously irresponsible that is, but instead walking encouraging Clara (again, herchild-mindeddaughter) to enter a sexual relationship with a 20-year-old man she met a week ago.

If you like it, that's totally fine, but my college did that show a couple years ago, and it just infuriated me beyond belief when I saw it."

I have never read comments on this show that I agree with more. I think Guettel is getting Sondhiem-cred. Because for years everyone said Sondheim's shows were "tuneless" and now enough of the larger audience has woken up to the fact that they aren't, people are afraid to criticize any show that challenges them, even when the score is genuinely awful.

Can't speak to the book, as I only know the show by its recording. But your arguments strike me as sound, and I agree with your later response as to why this isn't the same as complaining Evan Hanson isn't punished enough (which was always a frustrating criticism--I don't  like the show, and I still recognize that that argument is absurd).

Re: Evan not being "punished enough", I get where that's coming from, because the show basically elides everything after he reveals the truth and then a year later Zoe is just like "actually you made things better!". It's not that Evan needs to be "more punished", but the show functionally skips the actual emotional reckoning that it feels like it's building towards in favor of a faux-uplifting ending about smiling and being nice. There's a big dramatic gap there and the effect is that it feels like not enough happens as a result of the preceding two hours.

He's 26, young looking, and his Dad is producing. He is going to play Evan whether anyone likes it or not. 

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Re: Evan not being "punished enough", I get where that's coming from, because the show basically elides everything after he reveals the truth and then a year later Zoe is just like "actually you made things better!". It's not that Evan needs to be "more punished", but the show functionally skips the actual emotional reckoning that it feels like it's building towards in favor of a faux-uplifting ending about smiling and being nice. There's a big dramatic gap there and the effect is that it feels like not enough happens as a result of the preceding two hours."

That makes sense, though I can't say it bothered me when I finally saw the show. (By that time I had read endless arguments here, so I wasn't surprised by anything in the dramaturgy.)

Re LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA, I am surprised that Alex and Joe agree about the music, which I find glorious (especially when sung by Clark and O'Hara). (It does indeed remind me of Sondheim ONLY in the way I had to listen to PIAZZA and FLOYD a couple of times to educate my ear, just as I did with ANYONE CAN WHISTLE and the "book score" of FOLLIES. Didn't stop me from loving FOLLIES or PIAZZA, but I didn't fully appreciate the scores at first hearing.)

As for the plot, I thought we had decided as a society that people with mental disabilities have the right to choose partners, even have children, and live with the consequences of their own mistakes. Half the population is and always will be "below average" intellectually, but we don't hold them to the prerequisites for marriage that Alex would apply to Clara--in this discussion. (I'm not for a moment suggesting Alex or Joe favors any of the ugly business associated with the way we treated the disabled before 1970! Please know I am trying to make that as clear as can be!)

But if Alex's Clara and Fabrizio had no chemistry, I can understand why he might question the suitability of their union.

Updated On: 6/19/20 at 11:34 PM

joevitus said: "GavestonPS said: "Charley Kringas Inc said: "Re: Evan not being "punished enough", I get where that's coming from, because the show basically elides everything after he reveals the truth and then a year later Zoe is just like "actually you made things better!". It's not that Evan needs to be "more punished", but the show functionally skips the actual emotional reckoning that it feels like it's building towards in favor of a faux-uplifting ending about smiling and being nice. There's a big dramatic gap there and the effect is that it feels like not enough happens as a result of the preceding two hours."

That makes sense, though I can't say it bothered me when I finally saw the show. (By that time I had read endless arguments here, so I wasn't surprised by anything in the dramaturgy.)

Re LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA, I am surprised that Alexand Joe agree about the music, which I find glorious (especially when sung by Clark and O'Hara). (It does indeed remind me of Sondheim ONLY in the way I had to listen to PIAZZA and FLOYD a coupleof times to educate my ear, just as I did with ANYONE CAN WHISTLE and the "book score" of FOLLIES. Didn't stop me from loving FOLLIES or PIAZZA, but I didn't fully appreciate the scores at first hearing.)

As for the plot, I thought we had decided as a society that people with mental disabilities have the right to choose partners, even have children, and live with the consequences of their own mistakes.Half the population is and always will be "below average" intellectually, but we don't hold them to the prerequisites for marriage that Alex would apply to Clara--in this discussion. (I'm not for a moment suggesting Alex or Joe favors any of the ugly business associated with the way we treated the disabled before 1970! Please know I am trying to make that as clear as can be!)

But if Alex'sClara and Fabrizio had no chemistry, I can understand why he might question the suitability of their union."

Damn it, if you think it's glorious, I'm going to have to give it another listen. Where's my CD..."

Thanks, Joe! I had the advantage of seeing PIAZZA on PBS before I bought the recording. And I had read (and disliked) FLOYD COLLINS before I had that recording. So though I had to educate my ear a little, I did have some background.

And I should admit that Victoria Clark could sing the phone book and I would be enchanted...

THE BAND'S VISIT without Tony Shalhoub, who had won the Tony for Best Actor in a musical, was BORING...the only reason it won 10 Tony's was there was absolutely no competition that year!...there i've said it!!

Charley Kringas Inc said: "Re: Evan not being "punished enough", I get where that's coming from, because the show basically elides everything after he reveals the truth and then a year later Zoe is just like "actually you made things better!". It's not that Evan needs to be "more punished", but the show functionally skips the actual emotional reckoning that it feels like it's building towards in favor of a faux-uplifting ending about smiling and being nice. There's a big dramatic gap there and the effect is that it feels like not enough happens as a result of the preceding two hours."

You have perfectly articulated my problem with Dear Evan Hansen. Although I've seen it five times and enjoyed it every time, I feel like there's a rather large hole in the book and the ending is too pat. This is why I felt that Come From Away should've won Best Musical.

Yes, "Newsies" has impressive choreography, but the show was incredibly dated and tired from it's premiere. Book and score are by the numbers.