What happens to the legacy of old shows?

[binau]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 1:43am

When I first joined this forum what feels like almost 20 years ago, if I recall correctly we had people who would actually give first hand accounts of seeing shows such as A Chorus Line, Ethel Merman in Gypsy and Mary Martin in the Sound of Music. At the time I don't think I appreciated how rare this was - now it's almost unheard of here and I'm sorry to say that given the likely age of these people I am assuming they are focussing on more important issues in their lives right now or could potentially be no longer with us.

For shows that are very old and not in the Lincoln archive, do they simply just get lost to rumour and legend or is there any library or university who tries to archive information about them so they don't get lost to history? Even things as simple as choreography - how does this get documented? 

[TheatreMonkey]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 3:47am

To a substantial degree, yes -- for directors, choreographers, and designers who kept notes and documentation of their efforts, after their death most donate their documents to libraries, universities, or similar archives. (The same can be said of composers, lyricists, orchestrators, etc.) While not the same as a film at TOFT, they are invaluable resources to reconstructing productions. 

There is a form of dance/choreography notation that many have used for a long while. I believe that Encodes! regularly looks at the estate documents of various composers, arrangers, and orchestrators to recreate and "fill-in-the-blanks" for older productions they don't have a living source to consult for music matters, for instance. 

Updated On: 10/11/24 at 03:47 AM

[Wick3]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 9:13am

Some are documented in newspaper theater critic reviews written back in those days.

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 9:22am

Choreographers all notate their work so these archives that live on. There are numerous reference books that cover in detail what transpired during a certain shows run (day a lead actor missed Act 2 and understudy went on; gross drop when lead actor went on vacation; problems during previews or during a show’s run, etc) - I know because I read them and they really resemble this board with how detailed they are. I loved reading the coverage on the original 1966 Broadway production of SWEET CHARITY and the 1964 Carol Burnett flop FADE OUT FADE IN.  

[binau]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 10:02am

BrodyFosse123 said: "Choreographers all notate their work so these archives that live on. There are numerous reference books that cover in detail what transpired during a certain shows run (day a lead actor missed Act 2 and understudy went on; gross drop when lead actor went on vacation; problems during previews or during a show’s run, etc) - I know because I read them and they really resemble this board with how detailed they are. I loved reading the coverage on the original 1966 Broadway production of SWEET CHARITY and the 1964 Carol Burnett flop FADE OUT FADE IN. "

Are these public? Can I read them? 
 

thanks all. 

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 10:46am

Bootlegs are preservation when nobody wants to put up the money for it. 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 11:09am

I've often wondered about something related to this: what do productions do with unused b-roll and other footage? I realize this likely can't be released while copyrights are in play, but I'd hope it would be available to students and scholars in the (distant) future. Does anyone know if this material is generally preserved after a production closes, or is it usually just lost to time?

[fashionguru_23]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 11:31am

It's all cyclical, isn't it? Like, I think of the first "Broadway; The Golden Age" documentary, and think about those actors taking about Laurette Taylor in The Glass Menagerie. What will the next generation's be? 

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 12:41pm

kdogg36 said: "I've often wondered about something related to this: what do productions do with unused b-roll and other footage? I realize this likely can't be released while copyrights are in play, but I'd hope it would be available to students and scholars in the (distant) future. Does anyone know if this material is generally preserved after a production closes, or is it usually just lost to time?"

Either in their (creative/producing) personal archive/vault, or often times it can go to TOFT. I often come across press reels and B-Roll when searching productions or shows. 

[cmorrow]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 3:17pm

kdogg36 said: "I've often wondered about something related to this: what do productions do with unused b-roll and other footage? I realize this likely can't be released while copyrights are in play, but I'd hope it would be available to students and scholars in the (distant) future. Does anyone know if this material is generally preserved after a production closes, or is it usually just lost to time?"

B-rolls are often donated to the Theatre on Film and Tape Archive (TOFT), usually in large batches, This has happened, in some cases, when P.R. firms close. They'll have collections of these old videos, so they give them to the library. It's especially welcome when no video was made of the show, otherwise. 

Updated On: 10/12/24 at 03:17 PM

[Mellony]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 3:30pm

Curious when the practice of taking b-roll footage of Broadway shows started or became commonplace. Like, what is the oldest b-roll in the TOFT collection?

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 10/11/24 at 3:42pm

binau said: "When I first joined this forum what feels like almost 20 years ago, if I recall correctly we had people who would actually give first hand accounts of seeing shows such as A Chorus Line, Ethel Merman in Gypsy and Mary Martin in the Sound of Music. At the time I don't think I appreciated how rare this was - now it's almost unheard of here and I'm sorry to say that given the likely age of these people I am assuming they are focussing on more important issues in their lives right now or could potentially be no longer with us.

For shows that are very old and not in the Lincoln archive, do they simply just get lost to rumour and legend or is there any library or university who tries to archive information about them so they don't get lost to history? Even things as simple as choreography - how does this get documented?"

 

Much of it gets forgotten and disappears from memory but the theater of the 20th century is the most documented theater that has ever existed. There is a wealth of archival material for scholars. But as you eluded to in your post, what disappears is the historical audience which is essential to understanding the shows. And you can see from watching bootlegs of musicals that the audience's taste in things like gesture, pacing and realism changes so much from era to era that older shows can seem quite foreign. Human emotions stay the same, of course.

 

Updated On: 10/11/24 at 03:42 PM

[raddersons]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 7:43am

I do think this was a bit of the purpose of Encores when it first started: Let’s dig up the old shows the world has forgotten and give it an incredible band to play it. Unfortunately I think they leaned too heavily into that, and now they’re swinging the other direction as a course correction. 

[cmorrow]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 9:11am

Mellony said: "Curious when the practice of taking b-roll footage of Broadway shows started or became commonplace. Like, what is the oldest b-roll in the TOFT collection?"

I don't know for certain when the practice of creating B-roll footage began, but I would guess it was in the 1970s, when producers started airing TV commercials for their shows. TOFT holds a TV commercial for the original production of A Little Night Music, first broadcast in 1974, but there is no video footage in it, just still photos.

B-rolls were also used for news programs, when critics would deliver reviews on the air. The late Joel Siegel donated to TOFT over 100 B-rolls he used for that purpose. The earliest ones are from 1981, and include The Little Foxes, with video footage of Elizabeth Taylor.

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 9:37am

There could almost be a college course on Broadway Bootleg History: from the hoarded hidden boots of Golden Age shows to the much circulated A Chorus Line VHS, then jumping ahead to the present. That Beetlejuice closing boot is astonishing: multicam, soundboard audio, multiple sources. It’s basically a replacement for the pro shot that was cancelled. 

[BalconyClub]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 10:47am

Somewhat related: I recall the era in the NYT theatre listings when the newspaper gave the reader a quick idea of how shows were selling, with a brief description after the show title:

• capacity
• near capacity
• available 

[Mellony]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 2:18pm

cmorrow said: "I don't know for certain when the practice of creating B-roll footage began, but I would guess it was in the 1970s, when producers started airing TV commercials for their shows. TOFT holds a TV commercial for the original production of A Little Night Music, first broadcast in 1974, but there is no video footage in it, just still photos."

Oh that’s cool to know about the ALNM commercial. I know the ‘79 Evita ad has video of Mandy and Patti, but that might be the earliest I’ve seen. I’ve seen press reels from some 90s shows (Cabaret, Sunset Blvd, Kiss of the Spider Woman etc.) which usually have like 15 minutes to an hour of footage.

The history of bootlegs is fascinating! I’d never heard of any golden age bootlegs—I’m assuming those would either be audio only or were taken by someone involved in the production sneaking a camera into the sound booth or something? But if audience members were managing to sneak in video equipment that’s impressive with how bulky it must’ve been!

 

 

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 2:19pm

There is supposedly a private collector with video cassettes and reel to reel video footage of Guys and Dolls and other golden age shows.

[cmorrow]

Posted: 10/12/24 at 2:39pm

TOFT has a DVD transfer of home movie footage, filmed in 16mm, silent but in color, of the 1944 Broadway musical Follow the Girls. The filmmaker, who sat in an orchestra seat, was named Oscar Horovitz. As I recall, the producers permitted him to do this with the understanding the resulting footage would be for his private use only. The footage runs about 25 minutes, and captures various dances and musical numbers throughout the show. In later years, someone dubbed songs from the show to accompany the footage, but of course, it isn't synchronized precisely.

One of the performers we see on stage, recognizable though very young, is Jackie Gleason.

[Pernigraniline]

Posted: 10/13/24 at 6:21am

Theres not a central repository - but dedicated researchers could probably crib together a replica of the BIG shows from photos, archive material, newspapers, press kits, later productions filling in the blanks, ie the university replica of the OBC Oklahoma. But with cast members passing on, it would be much harder to do. 

I'd say you could probably put on a replica OBC Carrie currently as theres enough material in existence, and cast members, but putting on a replica Darling of the Day would be nigh on impossible.