What's Going On?

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 6:44pm

I am really perplexed that the musical Harmony is not achieving a higher %CAP than its current statistics here on Broadway World.  Does anyone have some insights on this situation?  

Thank you. 

[GottaGetAGimmick420]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 6:47pm

The show is not good and audiences do not want to go. Glad I could help.

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 6:51pm

Hi, Thank you for your message. At the risk of sounding naive, can you go into deeper detail why you think "the show is not good"? I would very much appreciate your erudite response. 

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 7:11pm

Gesualdo said: "I am really perplexed that the musical Harmony is not achieving a higher %CAP than its current statistics here on Broadway World. Does anyone have some insights on this situation?

Thank you."

You could have posted this on the Harmony thread instead of starting a new thread with the vague title “What’s goin on”. Just saying. 

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 7:32pm

Okay.  I am new here on this forum, and I didn't know about that thread.  From now on, I will look for a thread.  I appreciate your help.  

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 8:11pm

This is one of my favorite subject lines I have ever seen

I think it's mostly that reviews tear the show up for structural issues

There's a great score, a great story, and a whole lot of great performances, but sadly there is not a great show

And it's in a sea of shows with similar messages

It's horribly sad because of how many years of work went into it and how good a lot of the material is

But most bad shows just sadly don't succeed 

Some bad shows, like Jekyll and Hyde and Six, run a very long time because of wide appeal, but Harmony sadly doesn't have wide appeal going for it either 

[TaffyDavenport]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 8:18pm

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=1158267

[JSquared2]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 8:25pm

I thought this thread was going to be about a new Marvin Gaye bio musical.

 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 8:27pm

JSquared2 said: "I thought this thread was going to be about a new Marvin Gaye bio musical.

"

I thought it was just like a genuine question 

Like

"Hey, what's up?"

[Jarethan]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 10:12pm

BeingAlive44Ever said: "This is one of my favorite subject lines I have ever seen

I think it's mostly that reviews tear the show up for structural issues

There's a great score, a great story, and a whole lot of great performances, but sadly there is not a great show

And it's in a sea of shows with similar messages

It's horribly sad because of how many years of work went into it and how good a lot of the material is

But most bad shows just sadly don't succeed

Some bad shows, like Jekyll and Hyde and Six, run a very long time because of wide appeal, but Harmony sadly doesn't have wide appeal going for it either"

Disagree with several of your givens: the score sucks, the story is badly told., noone stands out except Zien, the show does not earn any tears shed (vs. the subject matter which has been portrayed far better countless times).

Re the final comments, Harmony would have wide appeal if it was a lot better.

[blaxx]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 10:31pm

Gesualdo said: "I am really perplexed that the musical Harmony is not achieving a higher %CAP than its current statistics here on Broadway World. Does anyone have some insights on this situation?

Thank you."

You failed to mention why you are perplexed.

Broadway is cutthroat. What people like you are usually blinded by  is their liking of the show, or the perceived  disregard for the artistry.

But this is a multi million dollar BUSINESS. In the end, not enough people are willing to pay the prices needed to sustain a show - that's it in a nutshell. 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 1/2/24 at 10:41pm

Jarethan said: "BeingAlive44Ever said: "This is one of my favorite subject lines I have ever seen

I think it's mostly that reviews tear the show up for structural issues

There's a great score, a great story, and a whole lot of great performances, but sadly there is not a great show

And it's in a sea of shows with similar messages

It's horribly sad because of how many years of work went into it and how good a lot of the material is

But most bad shows just sadly don't succeed

Some bad shows, like Jekyll and Hyde and Six, run a very long time because of wide appeal, but Harmony sadly doesn't have wide appeal going for it either"

Disagree with several of your givens: the score sucks, the story is badly told., noone stands out except Zien, the show does not earn any tears shed (vs. the subject matter which has been portrayed far better countless times).

Re the final comments, Harmony would have wide appeal if it was a lot better."

I think a lot of these tunes are very solid and a lot of the performances, even if none of them other then Zien stick out, they all blend into a fairly pretty harmony 

I think that it has a good deal of good in it and it is not a purely bad show

I think it has a much better score than some shows that have been successful, but as I said the subject matter is tired at this point 

And notice I said "great story" 

Cause it is a great story 

Not 

Great book

Cause the book is pretty bad 

I appreciate a lot about this show and I really wanted to love it but, yes, I concede that it's more or less a bad show 

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 1:51am

Your concept of "great story" but "bad book" is well taken.  I never considered this idea before you so eloquently described it.  I imagine that a good book has elements that this "bad book" lacks.  Perhaps, "good" books exhibit "goodness" --that is to say, "good" in the objective domain because the objective domain leads into the subjective response of musicals in general.  What do you suggest are the objective elements of a "good book?"  Perhaps, you could give examples from what you believe is a musical with both a "good book" and "great story."  Thank you. 

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 1:58am

I thought that the reputation of Barry Manilow by itself would have propelled the musical Harmony into instant success similar to what they do when casting a Hollywood movie with recognized star actors.  

So is it naive of me to believe that Ken Davenport's investors where following this "yellow brick road" to an imagined success? 

 

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 2:00am

Why do you believe this show is not good? 

[Gesualdo]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 2:12am

BeingAlive44Ever said: "This is one of my favorite subject lines I have ever seen

I think it's mostly that reviews tear the show up for structural issues

There's a great score, a great story, and a whole lot of great performances, but sadly there is not a great show

And it's in a sea of shows with similar messages

It's horribly sad because of how many years of work went into it and how good a lot of the material is

But most bad shows just sadly don't succeed

Some bad shows, like Jekyll and Hyde and Six, run a very long time because of wide appeal, but Harmony sadly doesn't have wide appeal going for it either"

Hi,

Thank you for your comments.  I have seen some "bad shows" myself, and I can identify the weaknesses immediately.  My wishful thinking was that Ken Davenport would by now be able to identify what makes a bad show bad.  Perhaps, someone in this thread would be willing to identify the elements of bad show-ness which are structurally integrated in the musical "Harmony."  Or someone may be willing to identify the elements of a good show-ness from a brilliant successful musical.

Thank you. 

[BeingAlive44Ever]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 2:51am

Gesualdo said: "BeingAlive44Ever said: "This is one of my favorite subject lines I have ever seen

I think it's mostly that reviews tear the show up for structural issues

There's a great score, a great story, and a whole lot of great performances, but sadly there is not a great show

And it's in a sea of shows with similar messages

It's horribly sad because of how many years of work went into it and how good a lot of the material is

But most bad shows just sadly don't succeed

Some bad shows, like Jekyll and Hyde and Six, run a very long time because of wide appeal, but Harmony sadly doesn't have wide appeal going for it either"

Hi,

Thank you for your comments. I have seen some "bad shows" myself, and I can identify the weaknesses immediately. My wishful thinking was that Ken Davenport would by now be able to identify what makes a bad show bad. Perhaps, someone in this thread would be willing to identify the elements of bad show-ness which are structurally integrated in the musical "Harmony." Or someone may be willing to identify the elements of a good show-ness from a brilliant successful musical.

Thank you."

Well I'm no genius but take the most text book examples

A huge failure of a show, Merrily We Roll Along in its original Broadway production 

It was structurally flawed, wasn't about anything revolutionary, and just didn't connect to audiences

The main flaw with it is that the pace at which the story is told with its whole moving back in time gimmick just felt unnatural 

The musical needed revised and reproduced in a different way in order to be successful, which it now is

Just like Harmony, there's a great score and a great story there

It's just that the story isn't being told in the best way 

There's a lot there to enjoy, and some people may walk away from the show loving it, but critics who see every single Broadway show and review them as their job see this musical with its all over the place book and poor pacing and just write it off 

It doesn't matter the huge names attached to it, it doesn't matter the legacy of the writer, because the show is structurally weak and about a subject matter that is very commonly explored, it isn't a critical success 

And, because it's not based on something immediately recognizable and doesn't star any big names, it isn't a commercially viable musical

The thing is, plenty of bad shows are commercially viable due to effective marketing 

Take Six, which is basically a concert that fails to tell any meaningful story at all and has a score that can be summarized as imitating pop music in a way that kind of ****s all over the whole idea of writing to progress your characters and story 

It is very, very successful for the following reasons: 

Its music is immediately catchy and easy to spread online

Its score appeals to a specific demographic that can easily get people to buy tickets, that being mostly teenagers 

It gets a bunch of free advertising by letting the audience video the finale 

There were no big names attached to this, but it didn't matter because it is so marketable 

Compare that to Harmony, which may have music by the great Barry Manilow, but it is very different from what he would normally write 

It's also not stylized and modern like Six is

It is the kind of musical that people who don't like musicals assume all musicals are

The music is very traditional, the story is very serious and very poorly paced 

It isn't entirely sure who exactly it's trying to appeal to

The whole first act feels almost completely unnecessary and like it only exists for the second act to happen, and the second act may be much better than the first but it's still pretty flawed in how it executes its story 

This is a huge issue for a musical, because a two act experience requires two different but related halves a story that create a satisfying night at the theater for an audience, and almost every musical is inexplicably in this format 

For a musical to be unbalanced and there to be so much whiplash during the intermission just makes it downright confusing for a lot of audiences 

Now, take a good musical 

Les Mis 

That's an easy one 

It appeared around the time that sung through megamusicals were coming into existence 

It was capitalizing on a trend in the market and doing so with a grander scale and a better score than any other such show before it 

And it was based on an already famous and beloved book by Victor Hugo, one of the most important writers of our time 

Being based on something people already have attachment to while also being a unique and fulfilling experience theatrically is the absolute best way to succeed as a musical on Broadway 

Tickets for Broadway shows are expensive, so the audience expects something grand and life changing 

You must remember that a lot of audiences are made up of tourists who are only going to see three or four shows in their time in New York 

Shows like Les Mis and Wicked that have that grand scale and great, powerful score with a story that moves along at a pace that the audiences understand it and don't feel confused by the lopsided tone sell tickets

It also has a lot to do with production value: 

Big, flashy shows with a lot of spectacle generally run a good while

Not always, of course, but even Spider Man, which had a whole ton of horrible problems, ran for two years off of the sheer spectacle of it all 

Harmony is not flashy, it's structured in a confusing way, the score isn't particularly special (although I do like the score a good deal), there aren't any big actors in it, it does not capitalize on the current market trends at all, and its marketing doesn't appeal to any specific demographic that is likely to go see it 

Because of that, the show is failing 

It makes me horribly upset, because when I heard about the idea, saw a few performances of the songs, and listened to the highlights of the score, I thought we had a real contender for Best Musical

But it has proven itself to just not be viable in its current state in the current market

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 3:21am

Gesualdo, welcome to the board, ignore the evil users of BWW. Hater's gonna hate. They're the majority here.  

[blaxx]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 4:05am

Gesualdo said: "I thought that the reputation of Barry Manilow by itself would have propelled the musical Harmony into instant success similar to what they do when casting a Hollywood movie with recognized star actors.

So is it naive of me to believe that Ken Davenport's investors where following this "yellow brick road" to an imagined success?

"

Much bigger names, backing up scores, have flopped on Broadway: from Dolly to Sting, Britney to Lennon - the list is endless. 

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 4:51am

Gesualdo said: "I thought that the reputation of Barry Manilow by itself would have propelled the musical Harmony into instant success similar to what they do when casting a Hollywood movie with recognized star actors.

So is it naive of me to believe that Ken Davenport's investors where following this "yellow brick road" to an imagined success?"

Had it been a jukebox musical of his greatest hits, perhaps more people would have been interested but also keep in mind, he hasn't had a top 40 hit in over 40 years and his reputation lies in pop music, not theater. We're not talking Taylor Swift here. He's part of the nostalgia circuit now, not a current star so his ability to propel a project to instant success in theater in 2023/4 would be about the same as Richard Dreyfuss or Woody Allen's ability to propel a movie to instant success in 2023/4 which would be not that great.

If you are genuinely interested in a discussion of why people here think the show is not having more success, there is a specific current thread running on that very topic with some good analysis. You can also read the thread here summarizing Harmony's reviews as well as read the reviews themselves by professional critics. That should give you a very good understanding of what people thought were the show's strengths and weaknesses.

I don't think pressing people here to do some detailed academic thesis on what makes a show good or bad is going to get you where you want to go. For those that see a lot of theater, we all sometimes find ourselves liking certain shows that most others don't and struggle to understand why everyone can't see how good the show is like we do.. No one's right or wrong, taste is always subjective. .     

And considering the show's story is about an obscure group of European musicians from 100 years ago that almost no one has ever heard of, let alone having a familiarity with their music, it would in fact be extremely naive to think investing in that show with a producer who has had very mixed degree of success in the past was a yellow brick road to instant success and staggering levels of profit.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

[GottaGetAGimmick420]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 6:07am

muscle23ftl said: "Gesualdo, welcome to the board, ignore the evil users of BWW. Hater's gonna hate. They're the majority here."

He’s using ChatGPT tech to write these responses bro. 

[Owen22]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 9:05am

Gesualdo said: "I thought that the reputation of Barry Manilow by itself would have propelled the musical Harmony into instant success similar to what they do when casting a Hollywood movie with recognized star actors.

So is it naive of me to believe that Ken Davenport's investors where following this "yellow brick road" to an imagined success?"

I am old enough to have purchased Barry Manilow singles and albums and adored them. But even I could care less about the musical that hand such bad reviews and word of mouth.

 

Updated On: 1/3/24 at 09:05 AM

[Ensemble1671017357]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 9:23am

Gesualdo said: "I am really perplexed that the musical Harmony is not achieving a higher %CAP than its current statistics here on Broadway World. Does anyone have some insights on this situation?

Thank you."

What role does intimidation of a significant audience for this show play?  

Headline: Massive pro-Palestine protests erupt in New York City: HUNDREDS of demonstrators try to force their way into the World Trade Center as Times Square is taken over

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 9:34am

“ I am old enough to have purchased Berry Manilow singles and albums and adored them. But even I could care less about the musical that hand such bad reviews and word of mouth.”


 

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 9:44am

What role does intimidation of a significant audience for this show play?"

 

What intimidation is going on at the theater?  Fairly certain we'd have heard about this.  Or any "taking over" of Times Square?