Will the Tonys consider Gutenberg! The Musical! a revival?

[chanel]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 6:41pm

Since it's a completely new production from the ones years ago, it seems like it would be a revival, though it's the show's first time on Broadway. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[BoringBoredBoard40]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 6:46pm

I would not consider Gutenberg to be a revival as it probably doesn't meet the definition of the "classics" rule i.e a show that is historically notable or done vastly regionally ect 

 

[willep]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 7:04pm

And here I was assuming the opposite, that it would be considered a revival since it had an off Broadway run. But I’m not overly familiar with the rules.

[JoeW4]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 7:41pm

IMO, the name of the "classics rule" is outdated. I don't think even the Tony committee themselves think of it in those terms anymore. There's a variety of criteria to look at when trying to assess whether something can accurately be called a revival, and its presence in regional theatre licensing is just one of them. It's much of a "call a spade a spade" rule nowadays.

When a show is 18 years old, it's much more important to look at whether the production is a product of a protracted development period, or whether the producers independently decided to brush off an existing work and REVIVE it. i.e. if they revived it, it's a revival. If they "transferred" it (even slowly) it's not a revival. There's some grey area with material that was written more recently, but again, at 18 years old, I don't think that grey area applies here.

(unless I'm wrong about the history of this Broadway production) it seems like a pretty clear-cut revival to me.

 

Updated On: 10/30/23 at 07:41 PM

[BoringBoredBoard40]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 8:26pm

It certainly would have better odds of being nominated as a Best Musical Revival then just a best musical

(less competition ect)

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 8:52pm

The original ran for over a year. It's a revival.

Sondheim's "Assassins" won Best Revival with a totally new production.

[QueenAlice]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:03pm

This is a limited engagement show that was put on Broadway to be a vehicle for its stars. It will be long closed by the time nominations come out and I doubt the producers are thinking in terms of whether the show will be considered a revival or new, as it’s probably unlikely to be nominated in either category. In other words, winning awards is not the only incentive for producing a play on Broadway. 

[quizking101]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:09pm

JoeW4 said: "IMO, the name of the "classics rule" is outdated. I don't think even the Tony committee themselves think of it in those terms anymore. There's a variety of criteria to look at when trying to assess whether something can accurately be called a revival, and its presence in regional theatre licensing is just one of them. It's much of a "call a spade a spade" rule nowadays.

When a show is 18 years old, it's much more important to look at whether the production is a product of a protracted development period, or whether the producers independently decided to brush off an existing work and REVIVE it. i.e. if they revived it, it's a revival. If they "transferred" it (even slowly) it's not a revival. There's some grey area with material that was written more recently, but again, at 18 years old, I don't think that grey area applies here.

(unless I'm wrong about the history of this Broadway production) it seems like a pretty clear-cut revival to me.

"

To add to the history, HEDWIG was only 16 years old from its premiere to its Broadway run (and that also included a detour to film). 

The classics rule also begs the question about where HERE LIES LOVE will fall, because it had an extensive off-Broadway run, as well as major runs in London and Seattle roughly 10 years ago, picking up many awards and nominations along the way.

[quizking101]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:12pm

I will say a lot of the hand-wringing questions about this will hopefully be answered soon when the Tony nominating committee hopefully finally meets.

They will have 14 productions to discuss (I'm counting SPAMALOT opening tomorrow), or 16 productions if you want to count MELISSA ETHERIDGE and EL MAGO POP (which...I don't)

[Cape Twirl of Doom]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:25pm

Huh?

What I am missing here?

This is the first time Gutenberg the Musical has been on Broadway, why would it ever be considered a revival? Tons of shows started off-Broadway, no one called Hamilton a revival because it was at the Public.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:31pm

As others have stated, 18 years is an awfully long time to justify calling something a new musical. Hedwig, Assassins, Wit, Cripple of Inishmaan, Lobby Hero, Blackbird and Violet are just some examples of one's with less time in between their original off Broadway productions and the "revival". Little Shop, which was one of the first to fall under this rule, was only 2 years more. So it would be very surprising to see this called a new musical. Here Lives Love is much trickier.

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:33pm

Cape Twirl of Doom said: "Huh?

What I am missing here?

This is the first time Gutenberg the Musical has been on Broadway, why would it ever be considered a revival? Tons of shows started off-Broadway, no one called Hamilton a revival because it was at the Public."

The Tony Awards have a "classics" rule that states that shows that were created long ago, but never made it to Broadway, can still be counted as revivals. Some shows are easy to classify. Trouble in Mind was over 65 years old when it premiered on Broadway. Easy peasy, it's a revival. Other shows, like Gutenberg, are harder to discern. Gutenberg is on Broadway for the first time and being marketed as a new musical. But, it is 18 years old, it's a new production, it has a cast album, and it's been up for licensing. It'll be up the Tony committee to decide where it falls. 

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:43pm

I think Here Lies Love is a cut-and-dry new musical. The production has been changed and updated over the years. But, at its core, it's the same staging done by the same creative team. It also has a significant number of returning cast members who have stuck with it all the way through from the Public. There was an Off-Broadway cast album, but it was never up for licensing. 

Harmony is actually the trickiest in my opinion. The show is TWENTY SIX years old. But, to the best of my knowledge, it was essentially on hiatus for a decade of that and has been in active development since 2013. The current production is entirely different from the original. But, the show is VERY different too and had major rewrites by Manilow and Sussman. Updated On: 10/30/23 at 09:43 PM

[JoeW4]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 9:51pm

Harmony is actually a perfect counter-example to Gutenberg. Both shows have been around a long time, but I'd argue that Harmony is "new" because there's an easy argument that all of its productions along the way could be described as developmental stepping stones along a continuous journey to Broadway - even with a long hiatus in between. There's a connective tissue there, and the fact that the same authors seem to have been tinkering with it this whole time further illustrates that.

Whereas a show like Gutenberg had developmental steps of its own, from Off-Off-Broadway to Off-Broadway, but then it was kind of just "done." They effectively said "job well done! Let's call it a day!" And then later on, a different set of powers-that-be said "hey, what if we brought Gutenberg back, this time on Broadway?"

[BoringBoredBoard40]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 10:13pm

QueenAlice said: "This is a limited engagement show that was put on Broadway to be a vehicle for its stars. It will be long closed by the time nominations come out and I doubt the producers are thinking in terms of whether the show will be considered a revival or new, as it’s probably unlikely to be nominated in either category. In other words, winning awards is not the only incentive for producing a play on Broadway."

I promise you every lead producer wants their show to win awards, it helps with licensing and the secondary life of most shows and this is a show that could likely make a lot of money post-broadway in terms of theaters licensing the show

[Mr. Wormwood]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 10:27pm

I'm gonna guess the Tony committee will rule it a Revival but I don't think it'll matter because I don't think it gets nominated regardless. Definitely a better chance in Revival though.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 10:56pm

BoringBoredBoard40 said: "It certainly would have better odds of being nominated as a Best Musical Revival then just a best musical

(less competition ect)"

Really: Merrily, Cabaret, The Wiz and Spamalot.  
 

i have to admit that I will be surprised if it gets nominated in either category.  An awful lot of musicals will need to get bad reviews for this to be a serious contender.  I have to admit that I have not seen this production, but I did see it awhile back.  I just thought it was too lightweight to be a serious contender.  Maybe if a bunch of the new musicals suck.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 11:22pm

Mr. Wormwood said: "I'm gonna guess the Tony committee will rule it a Revival but I don't think it'll matter because I don't think it gets nominated regardless. Definitely a better chance in Revival though."

It also shouldn't matter much to the producers because they'll have been closed for 5 months by the time the Tonys happen in June. So it won't mean a thing for sales. Unless they secretly have Gad & Rannells contracted for a year.

[BoringBoredBoard40]

Posted: 10/30/23 at 11:28pm

Jarethan said: "BoringBoredBoard40 said: "It certainly would have better odds of being nominated as a Best Musical Revival than just a best musical

(less competition ect)"

Really: Merrily, Cabaret, The Wiz and Spamalot.


i have to admit that I will be surprised if it gets nominated in either category. An awful lot of musicals will need to get bad reviews for this to be a serious contender. I have to admit that I have not seen this production, but I did see it awhile back. I just thought it was too lightweight to be a serious contender. Maybe if a bunch of the new musicals suck."

I will absolutely give you Merrilly and Cabaret but The Wiz hasn't even started on Broadway yet and I have heard mixed things on the road (The Washington Post just gave it a pretty mixed review and Peter Marks tends to align with most of the critics in NY), and between Spamalot and Gutunberg, I feel like nominators would give Gutenberg a slight advantage as it has yet to have its moment, also when it was off-broadway it was nominated by OCC, Lortels and Drama Desk for Best Musical... 

[BETTY22]

Posted: 10/31/23 at 12:01pm

It felt more like a play with music to meeeee

[Kad]

Posted: 10/31/23 at 12:17pm

I, personally, would consider it a revival because not only is it almost two decades old, but because it has been widely produced. Here Lies Love and Harmony have not- they have not been licensed and their major productions have served to develop the shows with an eye toward an eventual Broadway transfer. That, to me, is the central difference here. It's not simply the time since their premiere that needs to be considered- it's whether the work has been established as part of the theatrical canon. How does a work get established? Through widespread production.

Gutenberg is certainly an outlier in this topic, since we're typically talking about extremely well-known shows like Hedwig or Little Shop that were more or less pop cultural mainstays before appearing on Broadway. It isn't that well-known, but it has certainly been widely produced across the country for well over a decade. And it's well-established enough that this production could come together very quickly with little work on the show itself.

Updated On: 10/31/23 at 12:17 PM

[Jarethan]

Posted: 10/31/23 at 2:04pm

I will absolutely give you Merrilly and Cabaret but The Wiz hasn't even started on Broadway yet and I have heard mixed things on the road (The Washington Post just gave it a pretty mixed review and Peter Marks tends to align with most of the critics in NY), and between Spamalot and Gutunberg, I feel like nominators would give Gutenberg a slight advantage as it has yet to have its moment, also when it was off-broadway it was nominated by OCC, Lortels and Drama Desk for Best Musical..."

Clearly, I didn’t see them in the same light.  My logic was that Gutenberg will be closed, The Wiz will probably open strong because it is so long since it has been revived, and Spamalot got good reviews in DC and to me has a really good cast.

Re Spamalot, that is wishful thinking.  In Sarasota, I have seen three revivals spectacularly directed by Josh Rhodes, and I want him to have a big success Broadway, so he gets more opportunities.  Couple that with my personal view that Gutenberg is just too trivial.  I also admit that I can never remember the Tony rules…if 5 revivals, can 3 or 4 get nominated (I think the award gets trivialized if 80% of the candidates can be nominated).

[ggersten]

Posted: 10/31/23 at 2:12pm

Mr. Wormwood said: "I'm gonna guess the Tony committee will rule it a Revival but I don't think it'll matter because I don't think it gets nominated regardless. Definitely a better chance in Revival though."

In other words, the correct question is "Will the Tonys give Gutenberg! The Musical any consideration at all?"