Should WICKED Have Won Best Musical Over AVENUE Q?- Page 2

[whatdoesntkillme]

Posted: 12/8/16 at 9:13pm

I think we also need to consider that, in awards shows especially, "best" is totally subjective and open to interpretation--best can be best artistically, economically, politically, etc. 

[Dave13]

Posted: 12/8/16 at 11:55pm

No Avenue Q deserved it.

Updated On: 12/8/16 at 11:55 PM

[Tag]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 12:25am

You also have to remember the 2004 climate on Broadway.  Avenue Q campaigned the hell out of it (Vote With Your Heart), which obviously made an impact.

[yankeefan7]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 7:16am

"longevity does not correlate to awards"

Maybe not but I do think it does say something about a show.  

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 07:16 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 7:34am

Avenue Q is superior to Wicked in every way.

Wicked is nothing more than a hodgepodge of what the creators thought would belong in the standard concept of a musical. Ensemble shouting the word "green" or "wicked" for 20 times with their arms up in the air. Incoherent loud notes that come out of nowhere in the strangest places in solo songs. An unnecessary ensemble song here, a sad song there, a funny song there and of course a mandatory loud note here for the effect. That should do it for the sheeps, they must have thought.

It's a turd in tinfoil.

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 07:34 AM

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 8:39am

yankeefan7 said: "Wicked is still running strong and Avenue Q closed on Broadway a long time ago. The musical score  of Wicked is superior IMO  and then add the combination of the great performances by Idina Menzel and Kristin Chenowith."

 

Avenue Q is still running off-Broadway, is in good shape, and doing very well.

I like both shows but feel "Caroline or Change" was far superior. It should also have won the Pulitzer. I think it was a crime that the show and Tonya did not win.  It is a masterpiece and nothing has come close to it since.  The closest being "Shuffle Along".  JMO

 

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 08:39 AM

[MyMeredithMonster]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 8:41am

Avenue Q deserved to win.  If anything had beaten them, it should have been Caroline or Change.

[Jeffrey Karasarides]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 9:22am

While Wicked was the hit of the 2003-04 Broadway season (and still is), it still met with some very mixed critical reviews (including a pan from the New York Times). Avenue Q on the other hand, held some aggressive campaign telling Tony voters to ‘vote with their hearts’. The producers of that show also announced that they were going to be taking it on tour. But after winning the Tony, it was revealed that they only made an exclusive deal with Las Vegas where it would not tour while a production was running there. While Wicked is still the more ‘popular’ musical (which I also like very well), I actually think Avenue Q was a deserving winner.

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 09:22 AM

[newintown]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 9:30am

They're just awards, not anything actually connected to artistic quality. They help market a commercial project, that's all.

I personally think that, of the two, Avenue Q  is the superior piece of theatre - it has wit. I find Wicked to be mindless populist teengirl crap (with a score that's not really very good).

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 9:43am

yankeefan7 said: ""longevity does not correlate to awards"

Maybe not but I do think it does say something about a show.  "

 

Of course, but the question is about the award, not the show. 

[newintown]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 9:52am

"yankeefan7 said: ""longevity does not correlate to awards"

Maybe not but I do think it does say something about a show."

Yes, it says that the show appeals to a lower (therefore more numerous) common denominator.

[MrsSallyAdams]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 10:40am

Wicked has four terrific songs and two interesting leading ladies. It also has a lot of filler songs and second act book troubles.

Few will sing the praises of "Dear Old Shiz," "Something Bad," "A Sentimental Man" or "Thank Goodness."

The big problem for me is that the libretto is afraid to let Elphaba be wicked! She's abused, she's misunderstood, but at the end she destroys several facilities to free their animals, threatens a little girl with death and has Dorothy's companions maimed and imprisoned. The libretto keeps all these things offstage like it's a frickin' Greek tragedy.

The song "No Good Deed" is her turn to the dark side. The stakes should rise. They don't. Instead we rush to the anemic "For Good" which I feel is one of the worst 11'o-clock numbers in a popular musical.

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 10:40 AM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 10:50am

MrsSallyAdams said: "The libretto keeps all these things offstage like it's a frickin' Greek tragedy."

 

I think you are confusing Greek tragedy with Chekhov lol

[MrsSallyAdams]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 11:24am

I was thinking of how Greek Tragedies often end with a servant running in to report what happened. "And then Medea killed her babies!" "And then a giant bull rose out of the water and ate Hippolytus!" "It was awful! You shoulda seen it!"

Chorus: I hear some rebel animals are giving her food and shelter!"

Glinda: And what exactly have you been doing besides riding around on that filthy, old thing?
Glinda: Let the little girl go, and that poor little dog... Dodo.

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 11:24 AM

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 12:19pm

Wicked, Wicked, Wicked!!! What can I stay I left Avenue Q at intermission! Couldn't stand it! And I saw this in the last 2-3 years

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 12:36pm

That's great, eboytoyan, but you do realize, do you not, that (a) any metric on the show would put you in the deep minority and (b) whether anyone likes or dislikes the show does not speak meaningfully to the uestion asked? This is not about you (or anyone else).

[broadwaysfguy]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 1:07pm

I believe both shows are Tony Best Musical "worthy".

Avenue Q was clearly more innovative (with use of puppets) and more cleverly written than Wicked, both in story and score, and was absolutely hilarious. It also gave a satiric reflection of elements of current society at the time which were very powerful.   

Wicked had a few more memorable songs (gravity, popular, for good), some originality for the "girl power" twin female leads, fantastic star power (kristin, idina, norbert, joel) some excellent "big show" effects (gravity lift, no good deed lift, flying monkeys) and some strong choreography.

If I were a tony voter, I would have voted for Avenue Q.

ps Ive seen wicked more times than Avenue Q and listen to the Wicked cast recording more often.

I just think the Tony voters got this one right in a choice between two excellent shows....

 

[blaxx]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 1:30pm

Jordan Catalano said: "Caroline or Change deserved to win. That's not even a question. 

 

This will be the biggest embarrassment on the history of the awards for me. It is the best musical of the decade and it's sad it was overshadowed by the other two. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 2:39pm

it may be the best (you'll get no quarrel from me) from the consumer standpoint, but it was decidedly one of the worst from the investor standpoint. And there are more investors who are Tony voters than there are consumers. In fact, the Tony Awards are bought and paid for by the stakeholders so there is no surprise that they do not consider a flop to be the best show very often. 

[deltatee]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 2:52pm

IMHO: yes, absolutely.

[Sorry-Grateful]

Posted: 12/9/16 at 3:21pm

Of all the shows nominated that year, Caroline, or Change deserved to win. It was the most well crafted musical of the bunch. If the Tony's are about awarding excellence in theater (they are not), Caroline is the clear winner.

That being said, I prefer Wicked to Avenue Q any day of the week. Avenue Q's jokes are stale after any repeat viewing, and so much of the show is based on the most yawn-worthy cliches (closeted gay man loves his roommate LOLOLOL, so new and fresh). It mistakes pop culture references and exaggerated foreign accents for actual setup/payoff comedy book writing. Its book consists solely of low hanging fruit, VERY low hanging fruit. And the music is simple and dull. There's nary an actual melody in the whole show.

Wicked's issues are with its grandiosity, with its bigger-is-better attitude to musical theater: sumptuous set pieces, stage flying, a large ensemble, and reach-for-the-rafters ballads. It's probably the most direct Broadway equivalent to the Hollywood blockbuster. It's the Marvel superhero movie of Broadway. Humongous. Capitalist. But it never pretends it's not that. It's not nuanced, but it is competent. You are getting a big budget children's fairy tale. And that's okay! Not to mention, the score has many lovely moments. It's one of the better written scores of the past few decades. Honestly. This is not to say that Wicked is a great musical (it is not), but it's a pleasant night of theater. 

And I hate that I even have to say this, but I'll end this post by saying in all caps: THIS IS MY OPINION. 

Updated On: 12/9/16 at 03:21 PM

[ebontoyan]

Posted: 12/10/16 at 2:19am

Hogan I do not need to realize anything!!! All my opinion and I am sticking to it! lol lol lol

[2lovers]

Posted: 12/10/16 at 3:45am

Caroline or Change was the best musical that season. The Public Theater is hated by the Tonys. I have not seen Caroline in whole. But Lot's Wife is one of the best songs ever written. A musical about social change and social justice or lack there of is always good. And I personally think Tonya deserved best actress. It also seemed to be almost as clever as Rent or Hamilton with its many meanings. Updated On: 12/10/16 at 03:45 AM

[gypsy101]

Posted: 12/10/16 at 5:10am

2lovers said: "Caroline or Change was the best musical that season. The Public Theater is hated by the Tonys."

uh...are you sure? i guess they didn't get the memo; the last two Best Musical winners (Fun Home and Hamilton) came from the Public. A Chorus Line also originated there.

[Cupid Boy2]

Posted: 12/10/16 at 5:47am

Avenue Q is very smartly written, and as time has proven, it's a show for which there's clearly been an audience. If you compare the grosses of Wicked to Avenue Q back in 2003-04, the former was plainly the more commercial entity right out of the gate. Without the "stamp-of-approval" the award provides, it's interesting to ponder, though, if Avenue Q would have had the longevity it's displayed. 

Had I been a voter at that time, I would've voted for Q assuming I had that foresight. I think it laid the ground work to tap into a market not usually reached by the traditional Broadway musical. And while the award is certainly not the show's appeal to that demographic, I see it as being necessary to get the more "traditional" theatergoer to go along for the ride, too. For my money, it's about as good of an intersection between artistic merit and commercial appeal that we can expect from the Tonys.