Am I Racist for Liking "The King and I?"

[Lanie J]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 8:42am

I am a white teenage girl. I have recently begun exploring classic musicals, and I absolutely fell in love with the 2015 revival album of The King and I. I've been exploring that musical, and I learned that many in the Asian community find the show to be problematic and orientalist. 

I try my best to be anti-racist, and I feel like if I continue to adore this show and this cast album, it makes me okay with this racism. Am I a bad person and a racist to like this show?

Also, should I take Anna off my list of dream roles? I'm not pursuing musical theatre professionally, and my only opportunities to perform are through my school and the local community theater. I should add that I live in a massively white community. That community theater has been known to put white actors in yellowface- don't even get me started on the disaster that was my pasty white friend playing Ching in Anything Goes two years ago. Should I stop hoping to play Anna, or are there amateur theaters with enough Asians to do a less problematic production of The King and I?

Thanks for all your help.

Updated On: 6/16/20 at 08:42 AM

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 8:53am

No.

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 9:04am

To elaborate, The King and I's depiction of Siam might be interpreted as offensive, but Shakespeare's plays are offensive. O'Neill's plays are a little offensive. The reason we don't discard shows as soon as they close on Broadway is because while we expect the world to change, the play will stay the same, and it is that contrast that allows us to see it in a new light. It can bring new subtext to light through modern understanding, like the recent revival of Oklahoma, or it can bring better understanding to older ideals, like The King and I.

The yellowface is another story. If the opportunity to play Anna in a racially sensitive production comes along, then absolutely go for it. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend being anywhere near a production that does yellowface. Doing shows with large nonwhite ensembles isn't viable in many amateur theatres, but never say never.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 9:50am

As long as you are engaging thoughtfully and critically with it, then it’s ok to love it. Don’t ignore the problematic elements of it, but also don’t let that obscure what you love about it. Consider how the author’s worldview affected the piece: Hammerstein was vehemently anti-racist, especially for his time, but he had blind spots like all of us. Be aware and critical or those blind spots, then continue to love the piece as much as you want.

If you’re talking with an Asian friend about the show, don’t try to suppress their perspective by over-emphasizing how much you love the show. It’s ok to admit that you enjoy it despite its issues, but be aware that, for them, the piece might be a source of severe discomfort for them, and spending a lot of energy defending the show in their presence might give the wrong impression. Hold space for their feelings, and remember that your ability to love the show despite its issues is a form of privilege.

Updated On: 6/16/20 at 09:50 AM

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 10:49am

I really hate the mob mentality right now. As someone of Asian heritage, it pains me to no end to see the black-and-white (both figuratively and literally) thinking and lack of critical thinking in this current tirade that some people claim to be a "discourse." Meanwhile the MSM is willfully letting "kill Chinese virus" slide, which borders on hate crime and seriously endangers me and my friends.

To answer your question, no you shouldn't. Sher's production was an example how the material, troubled as it might be, can be humane and hopeful when these problems are faced and dealt with with wit and sincerity. O'Hara's Anna is a revelation and I loved her interpretation of a loving, caring, and resilient Anna both on Broadway and the Japanese tour last year.

[latitudex1]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 11:24am

Honestly, ultimately it is a rather faithful adaptation of Margaret Landon's biography/novel aside from the additional romantic subplots. Leonowens herself seemed to have a bit of an imperialistic view of her world, and her own telling of her story was deemed to be inaccurate and skewed.

All of that being said, as mentioned above, there is an attempt at balance in the text and a good director has quite a lot to work with to make the world feel full and its contrasting ideas feel well-repesented and honored.

(As an aside, I'd love to see an Indian Anna. I had no idea that the actual Anna had an Indian mother and was a master at hiding her own heritage and changing her own story to suit her needs at the time. From the little I've read of her, she more closely resembles a character like Dolly Levy to me than the motherly, stately interpretation of the role we typically see.)

[nealb1]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 11:49am

No, you are not being racist for liking "The King & I."  It's a brilliant musical.  

I'll give you an analogy.  Do you like "The Sound of Music?"  If so, does that mean that you are a Nazi supporter?  Do you like "Carousel?"  If so, does that mean that you like domestic violence?  

The list goes on and on.

[JennH]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 12:02pm

I actually appreciate this thread quite a lot. King and I is arguably my favorite R and H, knowing it has some inherent problems, because yes Hammerstein was anti racists, and I think that team did their bets at the time to explore this subject. Did they have blind spots? Yes indeed. This subject is also very fluid as we have daily proof. 

But also King and I is my fave R and H, not because of the ethnic clash (which is still important obviously), but I'm also just a sucker for the unspoken love story trope and bonus points if it's, what the Japanese call "tsundere"...the relationship, romantic or otherwise, that starts a bit contentious but soften over time. 

And yes the list goes on fr shows like this...seriously, I've already come across many people who want King and I, Miss Saigon, and others to fall into a hole and die in obscurity. And that just strikes me as some bad virtue signaling. I love Pocahontas, the Disney film...but ONLY as the film it is. I can love something on it's own while acknowledging the glaring issues it has. 

[JennH]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 12:14pm

latitudex1 said: "Honestly, ultimately it is a rather faithful adaptation of Margaret Landon's biography/novel aside from the additional romantic subplots. Leonowens herself seemed to have a bit of an imperialistic view of her world, and her own telling of her story was deemed to be inaccurate and skewed.

All of that being said, as mentioned above, there is an attempt at balance in the text and a good director has quite a lot to work with to make the world feel full and its contrasting ideas feel well-repesented and honored.

(As an aside, I'd love to see an Indian Anna. I had no idea that the actual Anna had an Indian mother and was a master at hiding her own heritage and changing her own story to suit her needs at the time. From the little I've read of her, she more closely resembles a character like Dolly Levy to me than the motherly, stately interpretation of the role we typically see.)"

A a mater of interest, this seems to still be in debate...she was very much born in India, but her mothers name was Mary Ann Glascott, which is a pretty western name, but no one knows much of Glascotts' own parents, and it's believed that the near total lack of info on this suggests that at least the grandmother was not European or at least mixed. but needless to say, this info blew my mind when I found out a couple year ago.

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 12:41pm

No, not racist at all.

Unfortunately racism does exist in our society, and all around the world.   And racists exist in every profession and in every culture.

But labeling everything as racist just because a POC is involved, when the situation at hand has nothing to do with race, only hurts those who are truly victims of it.  If the word gets thrown around too much, especially in places where it isn't valid, it lessens the impact when it really does occur.

If someone were to consider you a racist just because you like TKAI, they're probably just looking for something, anything, to bring up the subject.

I have friends who did not support BO because of his politics.  Every one of them encountered at least one person who questioned if race was at the root of their political choices.  

One of them was a Ben Carson supporter, and the other two have both said they would give anything to have Condi Rice as president instead of all this nonsense we've been seeing going on over the past decade in politics.  

Sad they feel the need to bring those kind of responses in to play to validate who they are, but their hand was forced.  If you have the need to call someone a racist, you need to hear the truth.

 

[JBroadway]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 12:59pm

theatreguy12 said: "No, not racist at all.

But labeling everything as racist just because a POC is involved, when the situation at hand has nothing to do with race"

 

I'm confused - what does this have to do with liking The Kind and I? TKAI isn't called racist just because "a POC is involved," and are you implying that the story of The King and I has nothing to do with race? 

With regard to your broader point: 

I agree with you that there are some situations in which the "race card" is played, even though it has nothing to do with race. Disliking Obama because of specific policies is a good example. But this kind of situation is rare compared to how often people actually are being racist. Usually, your line of logic is used to dismiss legitimate instances of subconscious and systemic racism, as well as micro-aggressions and "othering." The most important thing is that we constantly listen and self-analyze, and if we do that, and still come to the conclusion that race was definitely not a factor, then fine.

But if you're called out, and your instinct is to respond by saying back to the person "you need to hear the truth," that might be a sign that that you aren't actually taking responsibility and self-analyzing. It sounds like you're deflecting. People feel the "need" to call people racists because they observe behavior that appears to be racist. 99 times out of 100, the person observing racist behavior is probably right. If it happens to be that you're the 1 time out of 100, then fine, it was just a misunderstanding and you can move on. But it's not fair to blame other people for assuming that this situation was one of the 99. 

Updated On: 6/16/20 at 12:59 PM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 1:04pm

Only if you saw it with this dude as the King and thought it was correct. Other than that, you are fine. 

 

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 1:06pm

Sutton Ross said: "Only if you saw it with this dude as the King and thought it was correct. Other than that, you are fine.



"

Who the hell is that sunburned Howie Mandel-looking dude and what is he doing playing the King of Siam?

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 1:39pm

It's Australia's racist version of The King And I. Soon, they'll be Aussies in this thread justifying this decision.....

[Dollypop]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 1:52pm

When there was so much controversy about Justin Trudeau appearing in brown-face in his younger years, I quietly said a prayer that none of the pictures of me in Asian make-up for The Kralahom ever emerge.I did a summer stock production of the show in 1967 and there wasn't a single Asian in the cast.

Updated On: 6/16/20 at 01:52 PM

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 4:04pm

NO.

Updated On: 6/16/20 at 04:04 PM

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 4:54pm

It's fine to like the show, but I would hope you can at least acknowledge the racist elements to it (which you seem to do).  But that doesn't mean it's wrong to enjoy the music or the story or even the jokes in the show.

Something I've always found interesting about The King and I is that it was clearly written with the idea that white performers would be playing these roles (since that's unfortunately how things were done in 1951).  And as a result, in many ways the show actually feels even more racist when you're watching Asian actors have to play up some of these stereotypes (just to clarify, I'm in no way advocating for a production not to authentically cast the show with Asian actors as that would be completely unacceptable--just I can sort of see why the show actually feels even more racist now in 2020 when it's actually being cast appropriately, versus in 1951 when it was not).

[broadwaybabywannabe2]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 6:30pm

NO!!...and if you are dear, that means millions of theatre goers around the world are too...   NO!!

[MichelleCraig]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 8:36pm

No.

[joevitus]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 9:20pm

No. There are problems with The King and I, as there are problems with all works over time as ideas change. But at most, that represents the work itself (and The King and I, at it's worst, is very very far from racist). It would not make you racist for seeing what is good in it.

[sabrelady]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 9:46pm

When there was so much controversy about Justin Trudeau appearing in brown-face in his younger years, I quietly said a prayer that none of the pictures of me in Asian make-up for The Kralahom ever emerge.I did a summer stock production of the show in 1967 and there wasn't a single Asian in the cast.

 

Time is time was time will be. Things change- a friend of mine reminded me when the brown face photo appeared  he was in theatre school at that time(Ryerson) and it was a requirement in their training that they learn to do make up for other "Cultures".

POV where you were when.

 

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 10:41pm

JBroadway said: "theatreguy12 said: "No, not racist at all.

But labeling everything as racist just because a POC is involved, when the situation at hand has nothing to do with race"



I'm confused - what does this have to do with liking The Kind and I? TKAI isn't called racist just because "a POC is involved," and are you implying that the story of The King and I has nothing to do with race?

With regard to your broader point:

I agree with you that there are some situations in which the "race card" is played, even though it has nothing to do with race. Disliking Obama because of specific policies is a good example. But this kind of situation is rare compared to how often people actually are being racist. Usually, your line of logic is used to dismiss legitimate instances of subconscious and systemic racism, as well as micro-aggressions and "othering."The most important thing is that we constantly listen and self-analyze, and if we do that, and still come to the conclusion that race was definitely not a factor, then fine.

But if you're called out, and yourinstinct is to respond by sayingback to the person "you need to hear the truth," that might be a sign that that you aren't actually taking responsibility and self-analyzing. It sounds like you're deflecting. People feel the "need" to call people racists because they observe behavior that appears to be racist. 99 times out of 100, the person observing racist behavior is probably right. If it happens to be that you're the 1 time out of 100, then fine, it was just a misunderstanding and you can move on. But it's not fair to blame other people for assuming that this situation was one of the 99."

What are you talking about?  You're all over the place with assumptions based on what I said, as well as misinterpreting what I said.  

The OP is the one who brought up race and racism.  Not me.   I'm just answering the question.   No, she is not a racist just because a show she enjoys has caricatures and/or certain depictions of race.  

And for the record, my third paragraph wasn't even talking about TKAI.  It was about society in general.   A society that looks at everything through a racial lens.  Even when race has nothing to do with it.  I didn't say TKAI had nothing to do with race.  I was talking about society.  In fact, most of my response was really not about TKAI but rather a message to her to try not to let it concern her.  Because there will always be people out there who find something racist in anything you do, or like or see. 

Of course TKAI deals with race, but there are a lot of instances in this world where people irresponsibly throw the word racist and racism around where it is not valid and has no place in the discussion.  To which I gave the example of Obama.

For whatever reason she fears people might think she's racist because she likes TKAI.   I tell her not to worry about what people think.  This young woman is a case in point.  She fears racism will enter discussion and that she might be considered a racist because she likes TKAI.  And they're wrong about her.  It has no place in the discussion as to who this young lady is.

My little narrative is a simple explanation that there will people who will find racism in everything.   She can't be concerned about the fact that some might consider her to be one thing or another because she enjoys TKAI.

When you move on to the "broader point" and start spouting a bunch of psychological mumbo jumbo it is clear you obviously believe there is systemic racism so you are going to create your own assumptions based on that.  And there's nothing I can do to change that. 

But I knew someone on these boards would deflect to that.  Speaking of deflection.

I hate to tell you there will be times when you can't see the forest for the trees with those assumptions.   Because you will be wrong.  And not just 1 time out of 100.   And this is something you need to self-reflect on.  

Calling people, or inferring that their racist is a very irresponsible thing to do.  

And I also hate to tell you people are called racist, even when they never gave the instigator/name caller any legitimate reason to believe they are.  My friends are perfect examples.  Did not support Obama, and have been questioned as to why.  Because he's black?   That's a mighty strong assumption.   About someone you don't know.  And they would get this question from people they hardly even knew.

The media, and the POTUS himself, did it all the time too.  The media was always tying in objections to his policies as being race-driven.  He himself even accused the elections as being some referendum based on the color of his skin.   Again, a blanket statement and assumption about a lot of people he didn't know well enough to make such a comment.  It made for good press though.  And the media ate it up.

The fact is, neither the media, nor the prez were giving people 100 opportunities to prove they were one of the 99 racists you allude to.  

Assumptions.  All assumptions.  

And that's their stuff.  Not those who opposed his political philosophies.   Which to many conservatives and even centrists were extreme.  You can't have extreme political beliefs without being challenged on them. 

I do indeed agree that when you see patterns of racist sentiment in a person, the person is probably a racist.   And yes, there were people who didn't like Obama because he was black.  They're racist too.

But that's not what I'm talking about. My issue is with people who toss the word racism and racist around freely without even knowing what they're talking about. Or knowing the people to whom they're directing their accusations.  Something the OP obviously is concerned about.

If it's inferred that a person must be racist and not support Obama because he's black, it's the person who's doing the name calling who needs to be called out for making such ignorant assumptions.   And don't make their response as they call you out about some deflection, or defensiveness, or anything like that.  It's about people being tired of the word racist being thrown around so haphazardly that it lessens the impact on those who truly are victims of it.  

The fact is, calling people out on their recklessness is not a sign of deflection, or defensiveness, or whatever that psychological mumbo jumbo wants to see it as, it is an attempt to get them to self-reflect and self-analyze as to why they make such assumptions.  Don't make your biases and worldview about other people.  Sometimes you have to look at yourself too.  Because you very well might be wrong.

In conclusion, when you say that people who didn't support Obama only because of his policies are rare, you're really out of touch.   I would dare say we can conclude then that you believe most people who didn't support Obama didn't because he was black.  Or even that people were just hiding their racism behind their aversion to his political philosophies.  Using his politics to cover their own racist thoughts.

To people like that you can't even have an educated debate because they are already too biased to see the forest for the trees.   They'll make up an angle for everything and have it at the ready to use.  It's pointless.

It seems you're making a lot of assumptions.   Probably because you're only seeing it from your skewed political perception.  

Coming from my own centrist belief system, I had a more objective view and I saw it happen a lot.  I saw these accusations made all the time toward people who the accusers knew nothing about and certainly were not in a position to make such irresponsible claims based on no evidence of patterns or anything else.   I saw it happen to personal friends who I knew were not racist.   And it was at the root of those blanket statements made by the media and the prez who accused those who didn't agree with him as being somehow race-driven.

It was effective too.   And it worked.  

Updated On: 6/16/20 at 10:41 PM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 6/16/20 at 11:24pm

23 paragraphs of rambling? What an accomplishment. Jesus Christ. 

[bear88]

Posted: 6/17/20 at 3:50am

Joey Ledonio said: "All the white people on this thread granting OP permission to love a racist piece of theatre is a puzzlement.

 

Is King and I Racist?

Yes.

People are entitled to their opinions of whether The King and I is racist. But Joey, since you believe it is, why did you choose a song from the musical, "I Have Dreamed," as part of a medley in your senior showcase last year?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jQE3fWIqqU

You could have picked a song from any musical in the world, but you chose one from a show you say is racist - and then come to this board a year later and attack people who disagree.

It is, indeed, a puzzlement.

 

[dmwnc1959]

Posted: 6/17/20 at 6:22am

Sutton Ross said: "23 paragraphs of rambling? What an accomplishment. Jesus Christ."

 

Yup. Passed right over it. I’m sure there was something important in there.