JAGGED LITTLE PILL announces reopening dates and replacements (UPDATED)- Page 4

[steven22]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 1:14pm

The JLP Twitter account just posted a statement from the producers about the character Jo and how they're going to make changes moving forward. Not sure how to link it but maybe this works?

https://twitter.com/jaggedmusical/status/1438911252504489987?s=21

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 1:25pm

So they’re in rehearsals and we still have no idea who is replacing Stanley?

Also, someone needs to just explain this to me re: Jo. The character is written to express their sexuality a certain way but that’s not good enough for the people who say you should express yourself any way you want and yet are demanding Jo’s sexuality be portrayed the way THEY want it?

Posted: 9/17/21 at 1:27pm

"Jagged Little Pill addresses many topics: opiate addiction, transracial adoption, sexual assault, gender identity, marriage crises, and mental health. Many times, we were told "this is too much" - but always, encouraged by the bravery of our creative team, most of all by Alanis, we persevered."

God bless whoever the people were that told them "this is too much". A noble effort to try and save this trainwreck.

[steven22]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 1:30pm

Jordan Catalano said: "So they’re in rehearsals and we still have no idea who is replacing Stanley?

Also, someone needs to just explain this to me re: Jo. The character is written to express their sexuality a certain way but that’s not good enough for the people who say you should express yourself any way you want and yet are demanding Jo’s sexuality be portrayed the way THEY want it?"

Could it be Janine DeVita or do we think she's covering MJ in Laurel's track? I'm still hoping for Sherie Rene Scott. 

[ACL2006]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 3:02pm

I have to believe that whenever Patten leaves , she'll be replaced by a non-binary actor.

[uncageg]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 3:02pm

Jordan Catalano said: "So they’re in rehearsals and we still have no idea who is replacing Stanley?

Also, someone needs to just explain this to me re: Jo. The character is written to express their sexuality a certain way but that’s not good enough for the people who say you should express yourself any way you want and yet are demanding Jo’s sexuality be portrayed the way THEY want it?"

I am a bit confused over this also. But I did not see the out of town production. Did anyone see it? Did they make it really clear Jo was non-binary? I saw it on Broadway and just saw Joe as a young, semi butch, lesbian that was navigating through her feelings and experiences like any other young lesbian, or gay teen, might. And even though "You Outta Know" is not specifically about gender, but about another person, it worked, for me, in the show because Frankie was seeing a guy. I came out of the show with the thought that they were young and navigating through their gay feelings. As a gay man I identified with what was going on. Why does she have to be non-binary? Why can't she just be a cis lesbian? They do exist. Just my thoughts. 

 

[SomeOtherMe]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 3:18pm

"Why does she have to be non-binary? Why can't she just be a cis lesbian? They do exist. Just my thoughts."

To my understanding (which could be flawed), the main issue is that the character actually WAS non-binary to start with and technically written that way, at least during the out of town tryout. So to have them change it for Broadway leads people who identify as non-binary to feel erased. They finally felt seen and represented in a musical and that was really important to them. And then they just weren't. I can definitely understand how that would be upsetting.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 3:25pm

uncageg said: "Did they make it really clear Jo was non-binary? I saw it on Broadway and just saw Joe as a young, semi butch, lesbian that was navigating through her feelings and experiences like any other young lesbian, or gay teen, might. "

It's a long video and I'm sure there's a twitter thread with a quicker summary but this is what I found to break down what the actual changes were and also how the production was responding to fan complaints.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUKyYWHzRX4&ab_channel=AmyLovatt

[VotePeron]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 3:29pm

I don't know every point on the timeline of the drama surrounding the show, but the general overview is:

- In Boston, it was made very clear that Jo was non-binary or questioning their gender identity. I don't want to pretend I remember any direct dialogue, but there was a moment they motioned to their chest during the "Why would you take this seriously?" line to Frankie. It was implied that perhaps Frankie didn't take Jo's gender identity seriously.

- Between Boston and NY, some fans pointed out they felt it was wrong for Lauren to be playing Jo since she does not consider herself non-binary. 

- In the many rewrites for Broadway rehearsals, Jo's character was updated where her primary identity was now just gay/lesbian, and they removed all mention and notions of Jo being non-binary. Thus, the character is no longer non-binary.

This is where it gets murky. As I understand it, some fans got upset that they felt it was wrong for the show to discard Jo's gender identity in the move to Broadway. With so many themes at play, I took it as the team felt it made more sense to streamline and remove that character plot.

Then, this past winter, Jagged released a statement (or a tweet or IG story or something I can no longer find) that Jo was never intended to be non-binary, ever. Even though she clearly was portrayed as such in Boston. To my knowledge, this is where everything kind of imploded. People called them out for trying to "erase" trans stories from the show.

And now....months later...they're finally addressing it and apologizing. And from the letter, it looks like Jo's gender identity plot is going to be re-written into the script. 

So, yeah. I'm sorry if I missed any major events in this saga, it all happened relatively fast and everyone I've asked has a different take on it. U live u learn I guess.

Posted: 9/17/21 at 3:37pm

As I'm working through the Youtube video VintageSnarker posted above, one interesting thing:

VotePeron said: "there was a moment they motioned to their chest during the "Why would you take this seriously?" line to Frankie. It was implied that perhaps Frankie didn't take Jo's gender identity seriously."

That line is actually in the Broadway version (the Youtube video has a clip at 18:47). I didn't think Jo was referring to her gender specifically with that line, but rather more broadly to her non-traditionalness. Frankie has just left her to be in a straight relationship that she's very serious about, so Jo self-deprecatingly gestures to herself saying, "Of course, why would you take this seriously?"

Anyway, I'll be honest, as I go through all the changes from ART to Broadway, none of them make it explicit that she's non-binary. In fact, in one ART performance Jo does say, "If I got to decide what I was, I'd be a koala", which seems to make pretty explicit that she is binary - she thinks she doesn't get to decide what she is, implying that gender was assigned to her.

But even that isn't 100% clear, and it really seems like people can just see whatever they want in this character. It doesn't seem like the creators ever explicitly made Jo non-binary (unless I'm missing something) at any point, so the outrage feels mostly manufactured by people that are making interpretations that aren't necessarily there in the text.

Updated On: 9/17/21 at 03:37 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 4:45pm

VintageSnarker, thank you for the link. I did start to watch it but stopped after the young lady said she hadn't seen the show. 

ctorres23, I really like your idea of people seeing whatever they want in the character. For me, the way Jo is presented, you could do that and come out not really losing anything important to the story line and it could even provoke conversation around the character. I mean yes, I could see Jo being non-binary especially since it is something at the forefront right now in the community. And in a way, Jo is a representation of cis and non-binary members of the community when I think about it. What I enjoyed about Patten's performance was that you knew there was so much more bubbling under Jo's surface, and I came away from the show thinking about that. I really didn't need it to be laid out for me. But that is just my take away. I do plan to see the show again. It will be interesting to see how they decide to handle this.

[oughtaknow]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 4:48pm

My understanding was that the character was, at the very least, questioning their gender identity at ART, and this was explicitly confirmed by Patten on social media at the time. My interpretation of the koala comment is that it’s going a little farther than a cis lesbian who presents masculinely. The character isn’t saying, “I’m a girl, I just like dressing like this.” They’re saying they wouldn’t choose to deal with gender at all if given the option. That could be non-binary, it could be not sure and not wanting to deal with it, but it doesn’t sound confidently
cis.

Patten has talked about reconciling her identity and presentation (which seems to be similar to the character’s) and generally seemed to be excited about the whole thing. Dealing with a hot button social issue in a cursory and somewhat clumsy way is a summary of the entire show. I wouldn’t be remotely surprised if they intended something similar to what Patten had gone through and it didn’t occur to them that someone who had landed on explicitly identifying as cis might not be the best vehicle for a character who is currently questioning. This is consistent with their statement now that they intended the character to be “on a gender expansive journey.”

I am a cis lesbian (can confirm we do exist) - it’s not my place to determine what the biggest sin here was, but their insistence that the character was always cis is what has really turned me off to the show. Seeing “You Oughta Know” meant a lot to me. I was having a hard time and seeing someone who looked like me screaming out her feelings and connecting with a thousand people every night was cathartic. If TPTB told me that I was misinterpreting, Frankie and Jo were never in a romantic relationship, and Jo was just singing about the loss of her friend, I would be very upset and feel emotionally manipulated.

I am in my 30s, I am used to combing for crumbs of representation and being told by creators that I am wrong. I can take it when I am, but I wouldn’t have been misinterpreting above. And yes, the evidence in favor of Jo being on a gender journey of some sort is much less explicit, but it is there and does seem to have been intentional to some degree. So it seems kind of ****ty to say “we never meant this at all” as opposed to “we did this poorly.”

It’s been discussed on other threads how Patten is the reason to see the show, so I don’t know what their plan is going forward. It seems like if she was stepping down, they would have explicitly said so today.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 4:53pm

I do remember in Boston the scene with (I think) Jo’s Mom using the name Joanne and then being called Joanne again screaming “THAT’S NOT MY NAME” but I’m pretty sure those scenes have now been cut.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 5:54pm

ctorres23 said: ""Jagged Little Pill addresses many topics: opiate addiction, transracial adoption, sexual assault, gender identity, marriage crises, and mental health. Many times, we were told "this is too much" - but always, encouraged by the bravery of our creative team, most of all by Alanis, we persevered."

God bless whoever the people were that told them "this is too much". A noble effort to try and save this trainwreck."

Well said. I think "trainwreck" might be a bit strong because this show had its moments, but the decision to amplify 17 different messages (predictably, unimaginatively) to the point of an actual protest scene where the actors scream slogans from the stage holding placards, made me laugh out loud. so well said, ctorres, because it WAS too much, and some editing/focus would have really gone a long way.

I don't want to step into who Jo is/was/meant to be (though, as said above, its wildly ironic that so many seem to be insisting Jo should be anything), but when I saw the show I thought it was clear that Jo was hurt by Celia Gooding's character specifically because of her flirtation/sex (i dont remember) with a cis male. And I thought You Oughta Know worked perfectly as a result, because its the betrayal anthem, and Jo felt betrayed on multiple levels. 

[uncageg]

Posted: 9/17/21 at 6:12pm

Jordan, I should have added that to my comments. Yes, "You Outta Know" is ultimately about betrayal.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 9/18/21 at 12:40am

I saw the show out of town. Jo was not nonbinary. It was clear the character was having some questions about their gender, but nothing in the script explicitly referred to the character as nonbinary, and the character could very easily have been a butch cis woman as a nonbinary person. It's IRONIC that certain people have projected their own experience onto the character, and in doing so, have erased an entire identity (cis, masc female) to validate ONLY their own, when the character can be represented by a variety of queer identities...including someone who is questioning. 

[uncageg]

Posted: 9/18/21 at 9:01pm

This just popped up in my news feed from Deadline. These apologies just seem so unnecessary. They evidently changed things from Boston to NY. That happens. I do like what she says in this interview about what she hopes the gay community takes away from the Broadway Jo.

 

https://deadline.com/2021/09/jagged-little-pill-broadway-producers-nonbinary-erasure-lauren-patten-1234839144/

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 9/18/21 at 9:12pm

I'm so annoyed they have put any statement out. Changing the character or not is nothing to do with anyone other than creators. This show takes on a lot of strong messages and is doing a lot of good, yet even with this kind of show, the insane woke 18 year olds are projecting their own identities on to something else and forcing them to apologise.

The fact that so many are asking for Lauren to leave the show is unbelievable. This bulls**t is gonna kill creating interesting new works.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 9/18/21 at 9:14pm

Lin Miranda apologized because he didn't cast the right hyper-specific ethnicity in the Heights movie. Some movie studio once apologized because by including a scene where someone threw blueberries at someone else, they were being insensitive to those with allergies. The apologies are so spineless, sure, but worse, they end up diluting their purpose entirely since they hold no weight and don't change any actual behavior. 

[Scarlet Leigh]

Posted: 9/19/21 at 2:27am

This whole situation has blown so out of proportion when it didn't have to. And it does fall at the feet of the production making an original poor statement back when this whole thing started and then not address it again before it got to this point.

To me the text does read as they said in this most recent statement, Jo is a person that is not really 100% sure who they are but they are discovering that. The problem is that in the text at ART, they played more with dialogue that I do feel LEANED towards Jo as non-binary but then changed that to Jo leaning CIS female lesbian on Broadway. Was the character ever non-binary? No they ever really go all the way there but the dialogue is certainly more suggestive of Jo feeling that way from the ART audio that is floating around. A really good example I see supporting those that see the non-binary is in the conversation Jo and Frankie have about Jo's mother. At ART, Jo talks about how her mother is chill with "the lesbian stuff" but then asked Jo is they "want to be a boy or a girl" the line about the koala happens but then they talk about attempting to explain "the whole gender spectrum thing" to their mother. That is VERY suggestive of non-binary feelings without saying it and then the section ends with Jo's mother worrying Jo is just getting on a bandwagon. On Broadway the conversation goes out of it's way to emphasis a few times that Jo is gay and her mother is trying to pray the gay away and that the issue Jo's mother has is in how Jo is dressing.

This is the kind of stuff that people started to notice and originally question. Had the production come out with a far more eloquent statement THEN closer to, "Hey you know we worked with the idea a bit at ART but we didn't feel like we were doing it justice and did not want to miss represent anyone so we altered it to be a bit more board on Broadway," it might have been enough to at least dull the zoomers rage. But to sort of deny that they ever played with the concept at all when they cleared did without really knowing what they were talking about, they fueled the flames.

Also, and this is something I know VERY little about so I can't fully comment on it... there is some apparent BTS abuse towards former trans and/or non-binary (person that mentioned this was something going on did not specify) cast members? The names "Nora and Iris" were mentioned to me but I have not had the time to look up what the situation there is about?

Updated On: 9/19/21 at 02:27 AM

[ACL2006]

Posted: 9/19/21 at 8:23am

Apparently half the cast is new. We already know Stanley & Gooding won't be apart of the reopening. Laurel Harris & Nora Schell are both out.Yana Perrault left just before the shutdown for Hamilton (tour). There's apparently a new standby for Jo.

[phan24]

Posted: 9/19/21 at 1:29pm

From today’s Curtain Up performance, no signs of Lauren Patten or Stanley. Anyone know who this MJ is?s

 

 

[ElphabaGoodman]

Posted: 9/19/21 at 1:32pm

phan24 said: "From today’s Curtain Up performance, no signs of Lauren Patten or Stanley. Anyone know who this MJ is?s





"

Jane Bruce

[Anakela]

Posted: 9/19/21 at 1:57pm

JDonaghy4 said: "Lin Miranda apologized because he didn't cast the right hyper-specific ethnicity in the Heights movie. Some movie studio once apologized because by including a scene where someone threw blueberries at someone else, they were being insensitive to those with allergies. The apologies are so spineless, sure, but worse, they end up diluting their purpose entirely since they hold no weight and don't change any actual behavior."

 

That's a disingenuous recap of Peter Rabbit there, a kids movie where a character who is known allergic to blackberries was purposely hit in the mouth with blackberries, so that he would suffer an allergic reaction and have to use his EpiPen. Pretty rough stuff for a kids film. 

[steven22]

Posted: 9/19/21 at 2:19pm

There's a Twitter photo of the cast performing in Times Square today and I can't make out the new cast members. Anyone else?