The controversy over Gerard Butler's voice.- Page 2

[LoringsGuy]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 4:50pm

InTheMoney---I didn't notice anything about Patrick's breathing until you mentioned it, so I went back and re-listened and yes, you're right, he does breath in really awkward places, most noticeably in "All I Ask of You."
As far as his "poor technique," I was hard-pressed to find anything wrong with his overall technique, other than the breathing issue. He has a nice, smooth, silky sound to his voice, very natural and unforced. What part did you find poor? I'm a lyric bari-tenor, much like Patrick, so I'm really curious to hear your input.

Updated On: 12/18/04 at 04:50 PM

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 5:09pm

"As for other problems with Titanic - when propelley guy starts spinning, we're not supposed to start laughing. C'mon, you know what I'm talking about. It's funny, okay?"

Thank yo for mentioning this. You're right. How could anyone not laugh at that. It wasn't just the young unsophisticated people that laughed ta that part.

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 6:01pm

SOME NEW INFO:

themusicalcat on yahoo posted this:

"From the mouth of ALW: "The Phantom of the Opera is, in actual fact, a rock-and-roll show masquerading as opera." He said this in the HBO special about the making of Phantom."

I so knew this was true all along. People make fun of me when I refer to rock all the time but it's true. Every Lloyd Webber musical has very rock influences. I mean he had Jim Steinman in mind from the beggining for Phantom didn't he? Imagine what that would have been like.

[mizzie]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 8:47pm

I had an amusing convo with a friend. She asked how the Phantom movie looked. Here was my reply:
"Well, the girl playing Christine is pretty good, but she sounds extremely young. Oh, and the Phantom sounds like a duck."

Please don't take this too seriously, because it is pretty much a joke, but I am not very fond of Gerry Butler's voice for this role-as a matter of fact, I think it sounds very bad for the role because I always found the Phantom to be a very sophisticated sort of character, rather than a rocker.

Also, please note that this is only my own opinion.

[Type_A_Tiff]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 9:09pm

A duck? That's original! I think I said somewhere that it's more along the lines of a phlegmmy Fat Bastard, but that's just me.

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 10:12pm

I agree that explaination would make sense were it not for the fact that she asks the man twice- ergo, it is a contrived moment of dialogue, not a well thought moment between two colleagues that know one another.

She asks him first, "Take me to the graveyard."

Once in the cart, and a new driver is waiting (the Phantom sneaks on board, you see...) she once again repeats the question, "Take me to my father."

Either way, it comes off as the smelliest of mozarella cheese, and the film is lesser for it.

As for the horses, if it was a nod, they failed. Instead it is a blatant head butt and not a nod at all.

I am happy to hear you liked his acting. I for one watched a man that was clearly out of his element. When you watch it again, count how many times he motions his arms- open and up and down, and open and up and down- for no reason at all. This type of "filler" acting with motions is referred to as unmotivated gestures. Meaning there is no reason whatsoever for the performer to move in that fashion. It is always a clear sign that the performer is not comfortable with himself. This was completely aparent with his acting. This is a very amateur-ish thing to do. And they re-wrote a lot of the notes to accomodate his lack of range.

At least when Ewan McGregor did Moulin Rouge, he had an acceptable range if not the trained pipes for the role. In that way, you repect him for his courage. But with Butler, he comes off as nothing other than terrible.

Still, I'm happy you enjoyed it.



--M--

[theatreangel]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 10:16pm

I agree. Having seen him in Tomb Raider, I'm almost frightened to see the Phantom film. As for is singing, putting it plain and simple, I think he's horrendous. It's called the Phantom of the OPERA for a reason. A fine rock 'n roll voice might be fine to deal with, but he's horribly flat and out-of-breath all the time, and for someone as obsessive as I am with pleasant singing voices, that's really hard on the ears for me.

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 10:16pm

There is nothing to be done about most of the things discussed on these message boards. Nevertheless we write because that's what we do.

I guess my question is this... What is worse? The fact that I have been writing this, or the fact that you are writing about me writing about it...

You say why bother writing about it? Maybe you should heed your own advice...?

--M--

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 10:22pm

It comes off better on screen when accompanied with the actions he is doing. It isn't flawless, but some of it makes more sense from a visual perspective instead of just an auditory perspective.

--M--

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 10:26pm

If it is supposed to be such a rock opera then why didn't he continue to use artists such as Steve Harley the way he did in the beginning waaaaaaaaaay back??

Why has every Phantom in every show been trained as anything other than a rock singer?

Because most of the time ALW doesn't have a clue as to what makes good musical theatre. lol

--M--

[whiskedaway]

Posted: 12/18/04 at 10:47pm

i have an odd little idea on mr butler. i think that andrew heard gerry and thought that with training he would be improve enough in a year to record the part, and maybe gerry just never got much better after his audition. if you listen to him sing, especially music of the night, there is definitely something special about his voice, i think that is what andrew heard, it just needs to be properly trained. im no singer but i doubt developing a good voice is something you can just force in a one year period, especially with the stress of filming a huge movie for 6 months. anyway, yeah, just a theory.

[luvliza89]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 12:40am

I never listened to Phantom before I picked up the movie soundtrack. And in all honesty I found Gerry's voice fine. In places I loved it. When I got the OCR of Phantom I was disappionted in the Phantom and prefered the movie soundtrack. This will probably be how many people will view when they hear or see it for the first time. I listen to and respect many different Broadway shows and performers, and to me Gerry sounded great.

[JMVR]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 1:20am

All I know is regardless of whether people think the Phantom is supposed to be aggod singer or not, The Music of the Night is supposed to be a hypnotic number, easy to listen to and soothing to the ear. Mr, Butler's rendition distrubs rather than hypnotize and just makes you want to play the Crawford or Wilikinsin versions ASAP for the soothing effect! He is acceptable in other parts of the score but I think the only way he could achieve the desired effect in that number would be through his remarkable looks (supposed deformity aside) rather than throught his singing!

I am sorry but this whole ALW line of "Phantom is really a rock show disguised as an Opera" just doesn't fly with me. I've always considered it a musical with an operatic flavor. It is as far from being an opera as it is from being a rock show, come on. You all know that! I know that you know and you know that I know that you know and so on. ALW also knows that and my guess is that he just thought HBO viewers would flock to the movie after such a revelation!

[Sally]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 2:00am

First,another quote from ALW about Butler's voice (from an interview):

"It’s absolutely crucial as the film is nearly all sung through. Emmy Rossum, who trained with the Metropolitan Opera (New York), was just 17 and has got a fantastic voice. Patrick (Wilson) is one of the great natural lyric tenors from musical theatre. And Gerry (Butler) has a great rock tenor voice. That balance vocally was very important because for the Phantom, we needed somebody who’s got a bit of rock ’n’ roll sensibility in him. He’s got to be a bit rough, a bit dangerous, not a conventional singer in a sense."

Well, he got what he wanted in that Butler looks dangerous and sounds rough.


Michael Strathmore:

<< If it is supposed to be such a rock opera then why didn't he continue to use artists such as Steve Harley the way he did in the beginning waaaaaaaaaay back??

Why has every Phantom in every show been trained as anything other than a rock singer?>>


---Because he changed his mind before the show was staged. Now, it seems he has changed it back---at least in the casting of Butler.


JMVR:

<< I am sorry but this whole ALW line of "Phantom is really a rock show disguised as an Opera" just doesn't fly with me. I've always considered it a musical with an operatic flavor. It is as far from being an opera as it is from being a rock show, come on.>>

Right you are. It has an operatic flavor athough the only characters who *have* to be able to sing operatically are Carlotta and Piangi. Singers with operatic training have played the Phantom---Anthony Warlow and ??? They have all had at least "theatrical voices" except Steve Harley (before the show was staged) and now Gerard Butler.

My theory, such as it is, is that ALW didn't want a theatrical tenor. Some of the non-theater lovers he hoped to attract tend to think that men with smooth, high voices are somehow sissy and effete(?) I think he cast Butler to attract the fangirls (and some of the fanboys) and the "unwashed" theatrically speaking. He kept the film fairly close to the show for all the rest of the fans, let Schumacher use all of the elaborate sets and costumes he wanted to dazzle everyone, and is sitting there, admiring his paintings and hoping that the mix works.

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 2:01am

"It's called the Phantom of the OPERA for a reason."

Yes, but it still isn't an opera. It's a Broadway musical with very contemporary style and should seldom sound operatic except for Carlotta.

I guess I was very surprised too about ALW saying it was a rock'n'roll show and wonder also if he said just for the image on HBO. I guess I trust him more than that though.

I like the idea of having Gerard's strange sound to contrast, like he said, the other normal pretty voices in the show. Doesn't Christine say a line in the show where she describes his voice as "strange?" I think she calls it "sweet" too so I don't know.

[kec]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 3:39am

"She asks him first, "Take me to the graveyard." "

Actually, she walks into the stables and he says, "Where to Miss?" and her response is to the graveyard.

She then qualifies her request when she gets into carriage (yes, I know that's the Phantom in the driver's seat) by saying take me to my father's grave.

I saw the film a second time, but nothing seemed out of place or wrong to me in the acting. But then I'm not an actor, so some of the finer points of the craft would not be apparent to me.

As for them rewriting the notes... since Butler's voice is a baritone, would it not have made sense for them for the songs to be transposed into a key suitable for his range?

To the poster who said he was flat all the time... I disagree. I had some concerns about his singing because I knew he hadn't had any vocal training prior to this role, but I didn't hear anything off key when I listened to the highlights for the first time. When I read comments elsewhere about him being flat, I went back and listened again -- I still didn't hear it. I've sung in choruses for several years, and I would certainly know a flat note if I heard one. The breathing is another issue... I do hear him take breaths in places where a more experienced singer would not.

"Doesn't Christine say a line in the show where she describes his voice as "strange?" I think she calls it "sweet" too so I don't know. "

The lyrics are:

"But his voice filled my spirit with a strange, sweet sound... in that night there was music in my mind...
And through music my soul began to soar! And I heard as I'd never heard before..."

Updated On: 12/19/04 at 03:39 AM

[InTheMoney]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 5:22am

Loringsguy, there was very little diaphragm support (which is frequently found with poor breathing as the singer has to "snatch" breaths which leaves them more prone to shallow breathing and therefore less support from the diaphragm). I can't remember what else - I'll have to have another listen & get back to you. I do remember hearing him struggling with the low notes in AIAOY - those are definitely at the bottom of his range!

[Herbert_Von_Krolock]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 10:59am

--Why is there a horse available to take Christine from the hidden hallways behind her mirror to the boat-right before the Phantom's lair? I mean, what the...!? - Michael Strathmore

In Response...

"Suddenly, a hot breath passed over my face and I perceived a white shape, beside the man's black shape, in the darkness. The black shape lifted me on to the white shape, a glad neighing greeted my astounded ears and I murmured, `César!' The animal quivered. Raoul, I was lying half back on a saddle and I had recognized the white horse out of the Profeta, which I had so often fed with sugar and sweets. I remembered that, one evening, there was a rumor in the theater that the horse had disappeared and that it had been stolen by the Opera ghost. I believed in the voice, but had never believed in the ghost."

This was not just a nod to the silent film, but also definitely taken out of the original Leroux novel when Christine is on the rooftop telling Raoul of her encounter with the Phantom.

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 12:11pm

It's funny. Gerard's voice gives me a few eargasms throughout the show yet there are other parts where I try to ignore him.

[Marquise]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 12:21pm

it's sad when you have to go out of your way to ignore someone's singing on the soundtrack to a musical, and that person just happens to be the lead.

makes ya think don't it?

also, this movie is proof that even though the same hands (really useful, alw, et al) that were involved in bringing this to the stage had their hand in the movie it doesn't mean that it will come out "right".

the negative responses on this far outweigh the positive...but i will reserve judgement of it overall until the 22nd.

as far as gerard butler is concerned...

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Updated On: 12/19/04 at 12:21 PM

[EponineThenardier]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 12:52pm

"And whenever he embraces Christine, the lack of passion is astounding."

I'm not surprised. Not for lack of acting really, but I suggest you all read the articles in Newsweek and Elle about Emmy. I have lost all faith in her, apparently she is the biggest b!tch. And I get the impression that Patrick really didn't like her.



As for the singing I think they were basically going for emotion in the voice and acting the songs out. I personally don't mind Gerard's voice. I adore his "Flattering vhild you should know me......(until)...I am there inside!" Oh wow! But there are other pieces where he struggles, but I like him, I like their choice. I want to hear what he sounds like in 5 years or so if he keeps training, I think he could be fabulous.

Emmy is good in a couple of the numbers but I think they based her casting because she is a lovely girl and becasue she had "training" although that training does always show. I personnally keep thinking back to what a problem she was on set and I can't keep that out of my brain. It has ruined the film for me.

Patrick this is not his best role. He takes a little and gives it life. It is a fluff role and he does the best he can, I love him. Nomatter what he does.

And above all: THEY NEEED TO LEARN HOW TO FCUKING MOUTH THEIR SONGS!!!!!! AHHHHH!!! Especially Emmy oh God.... It is the biggest pain watching it. I know I'm gonna have my hands over my eyes during p[art of the movie cause of this. Blah. They have no excuse the lip syncing (sp?) in Moulin ROuge and Chicago was near perfect. This film should have it too!

That was way longer than it should have been.

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 1:39pm

Come on kec... qualifies her response? To whom? This old bloke who, if he actually had some rapport with Christine, might not recommend she travel alone with all the happenings that have been about the opera house. Instead, he comes off as nothing more than a stranger. There is no moment of familiarity between the two, and therefore nothing to suggest that she needs to say, "Take me to my father..."

The line comes off as contrived, inserted for the benefit of the dumbed down audience members too slow to realize why she is going to the grave. Still, even then, if Schumacher wasn't so pretentious as to comdescend the audience, he would let then watch for another two minutes, to see that she is indeed arriving at her father's (huge) tomb. And there is another point, isn't there...? I mean, the tomb is the largest in the lot, surely the folk of this part of town would know all about the Daae tomb- it is the largest there. So, one might argue, was Christine bragging about it when she reiterated where she was going??

Bottom line is that it is a poor cinematic moment. I mean, she is an orphan, why else would she be going to the graveyard?? Obviously it is to visit someone from her family line! She ain't going for ****s and giggles.

Shoot Schumacher already. I can't believe they still let him work. Did no one see his Batman flicks?

--M--

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 1:44pm

OK...you know what.....I am getting really tired of 500 billion threads about "why was Gerard and Emmy cast?" Well, here we go straight from me to you:

IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THEIR VOICE DO NOT GO AND SEE THE MOVIE. IF YOU WERE BORED BY IT, DON'T KEEP POSTING THAT YOU WERE BORED. JUST LEAVE IT AT YOU DID NOT LIKE IT, AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE.

Thanks,
spidey

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 1:45pm

Herbert_Von_Krolock, I know this is from the novel. They also added more things from the novel as well.

However...

On film, when you watch it. The editing does nothing to help the transition from cut to cut. Instead, we see the Phantom and Christine in the hallway, then suddenly at the stable on the horse, then suddenly offing the horse and into the boat. Meanwhile, you can still see what looks to be the stable in the background up the ramp, as if to say that the stable was only twenty feet from the boat. That is to say, they could have walked. But no, Schumacher wants to beat the audience over the head with as much forced romance as possible.

Gag me.

--M--

[Michael Strathmore]

Posted: 12/19/04 at 1:47pm

Kec, calling Butler a baritone is an insult to baritones everywhere...