What is an Original Musical?

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 1:48am

There is a debate that seems to be taking over Broadway Reddit and I wanted to bring it here (mostly because I'm looking for people to tell me that I'm not insane and I think I'm in good company here). SO, the question is, what is the definition of an Original Musical?

I am partial to the specific, but broad, definition that an original musical is any musical with original music that would be eligible to win "Best Original Score" at the Tonys or any other theatre award. It specifically refers to the music and it can totally be a faithful adaptation of another medium. 

Other people have taken the more narrow approach that it must be something that has original music, but is also not adapted from anything else. I disagree with, but understand this approach. 

And then there are some people trying to argue that &Juliet is somehow an original because it is creative? IDK about that one...

BUT, I am curious to know what you all think!

 

[hork]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 1:58am

I'd say what you're describing is a new musical (as opposed to a revival) and that an original musical is, indeed, something not adapted from another work.

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 2:14am

I'm definitely not describing new musicals because what I am describing does not include shows like &Juliet, Moulin Rouge, or MJ and those are all definitely new musicals. 

Updated On: 11/20/22 at 02:14 AM

[Dylan Smith4]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 7:56am

Here’s what I would say, an original musical is a show with a never before heard story and score. Take Kimberly Akimbo for example (saw it yesterday). Until it premiered last year Off-Broadway, no one knew about it. Yes, it was based off of a play, but the story behind it is all original. Overall, an original musical is something we haven’t heard before but the creativity that’s behind it is key. Will it work or not? 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 9:31am

To me? Original story w/ original music, no adaptations qualify. 

 

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 9:38am

next to normal, Caroline or Change, Follies, A Strange Loop, [title of show]

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 10:02am

Dylan Smith4 said: "Here’s what I would say, an original musical is a show with a never before heard story and score. Take Kimberly Akimbo for example (saw it yesterday). Until it premiered last year Off-Broadway, no one knew about it. Yes, it was based off of a play, but the story behind it is all original. Overall, an original musical is something we haven’t heard before but the creativity that’s behind it is key. Will it work or not?"

That's interesting!

I definitely think there needs to be a distinction between shows like Akimbo and Almost Famous, despite them both being pretty faithful adaptations of their source material. 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 11:54am

Oklahoma! is probably the most original musical in theater history, but it wouldn't qualify under some of these definitions. 

This is a terminological issue, and it's best solved by describing the story as original (or not), not the musical.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 12:09pm

Truly original musicals are rare because musical theatre is largely an adaptive art form. From the beginning musicals were often based on popular plays or novels and more recently we see more musicals based on popular films, artist biographies and song catalogues. The Tony Awards recognize new musicals for the Best Musical category with no distinction given to originality of the story. There are too many variables and exceptions that could be argued for each individual show. Mamma Mia, for example, is an original story that didn’t really exist in a prior form of entertainment that uses pre-existing music. It was eligible for best musical as a new musical but it’s up to the individual to decide if it’s an original musical. There are no concrete rules. 

[JoeW4]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 12:49pm

jkcohen626 said: "I definitely think there needs to be a distinction between shows like Akimbo and Almost Famous"

I'd probably refer to that distinction as "IP-reliant" vs. "not IP-reliant."

Or more casually, an "IP show" or a "non-IP show" (technically Kimberly Akimbo is also IP under the legal definition, but nowadays, we tend to colloquially use the term "IP" as a placeholder for "recognizable IP"

I also think the whole discussion around "original musicals," is kind of a red herring. Adaptation isn't the problem - laziness and bad writing are the problems. Original shows can be written badly/lazily, and adaptations can be fresh and original. I feel like we've reached a point where most theatre fans seem to acknowledge that fact, but we still keep fixating on this idea of an original score + original story being some kind of Golden Combo, even though those shows are just as liable to turn out bad.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 11/20/22 at 1:23pm

^oh, I agree!  An "original musical" doesn't mean it would be any better worse, than an adaptation.  I get most excited about a completely original musical...and least excited about a jukebox one. 

However, good is good.

[steven carter]

Posted: 11/21/22 at 12:54pm

To me, an "original musical" is the same as an original SCORE-->new songs composed for this work. It's still an "original" to me, even when it's adapted from another non-musical source. So "Oklahoma" is an original musical because "Green Grow the Lilacs" wasn't a musical. The current "Kimberly Akimbo" is a (wonderful) original musical, because the same named play it's based on did not have songs.

Almost every musical is based on some kind of source material (novel, play, film), but making it into a piece of musical theatre should be a creative process that marks it as different from the source, and potentially even more impactful (combination of drama, music, dance, and design). But just putting a movie musical onstage with the same songs, or a revival of a previously produced show is not an original musical, and is considerably less artful.

Worst of all (to me) is a Jukebox musical. The songs were not created for the characters who sing them. They often are wildly out of character for the characters assigned to sing them. The audience at Jukebox musicals seems to consider the theatre like cruise ship entertainment, as they sing along to the songs they know....it's the opposite of creating real musical theatre. Even in a well-done Jukebox, like "Jersey Boys", I noticed that the audience (after the first 6 months of more regular theatregoers) started to lose interest in the actual PLAY, often getting up during the book scenes, or flipping thru the playbill loudly, until the next Four Seasons song came along. That type of audience would much prefer one of those Impersonator shows....or cover bands that play just the hits. I know that's not every member of the audience, but I have noticed this grow thru the years. The audience at, for example, the new Neil Diamond jukebox "Beautiful Noise" will include Broadway World-types looking for a real theatre experience. But it will also include people who don't know or care who Will Swenson is, and would be much happier if Will was just doing a faux Evening with Neil Diamond concert. Which is exactly what they treat the evening as.

 

 

Updated On: 11/21/22 at 12:54 PM

[BroadwayNYC2]

Posted: 11/21/22 at 1:34pm

“Here’s what I would say, an original musical is a show with a never before heard story and score. Take Kimberly Akimbo for example (saw it yesterday). Until it premiered last year Off-Broadway, no one knew about it. Yes, it was based off of a play, but the story behind it is all original. Overall, an original musical is something we haven’t heard before but the creativity that’s behind it is key. Will it work or not?"”

 

I don’t think this logic works, because we can bend those rules so to speak for any property. Shrek was based off a movie, but the story behind it was original (technically based on a book but stick with me here), so therefore it is an original musical. Akimbo was still based on a play, regardless if it’s plot is creative or not. 
 

I think the term original musical needs to refer to musicals that are not based on a previous property and have an original score.

 

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 11/21/22 at 1:49pm

To me, the definition of an original musical is a musical that has nothing to do with anything pre-existing. Not based on a movie, a book, a play, etc, and not using a score made of songs written before the conception of the musical.

With this definition in mind, I don't consider things like Kimberly Akimbo, Shrek, any jukebox musical, and yes, even Oklahoma! to qualify. 

Oklahoma! may have been groundbreaking, but it was not original. Green Grow The Lilacs was original.

[TheGingerBreadMan]

Posted: 11/21/22 at 1:55pm

. Updated On: 11/21/22 at 01:55 PM

[Jarethan]

Posted: 11/21/22 at 4:27pm

dramamama611 said: "To me? Original story w/ original music, no adaptations qualify.

"I am inclined to agree with your definition.  Original vs. non-original does not have anything to do with quality.

I would point to additional shows like 1776, Hair, Evita (I don’t think it is based on a play or movie, etc., Company, Gypsy, The Will Rogers Follies, Hallelujah Baby, I Love My Wife, Sunday in the Park With George, City of Angels (I think there is no prior source on which it is based), I would argue Into the Woods…it is inspired by, not based on. 

it really starts to get pretty difficult to argue on some shows.  Is West Side Story based on Romeo and Juliet, or is it inspired by it?  If it is inspired by it, is it original.  I think so. 

To me, it must have an original score.  I can imagine, however, someone arguing that the movie Moulin Rouge was an original musical because the story was new. 

Updated On: 11/21/22 at 04:27 PM

[benhow2]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 10:32am

"To me, the definition of an original musical is a musical that has nothing to do with anything pre-existing. Not based on a movie, a book, a play, etc, and not using a score made of songs written before the conception of the musical."

I fully agree with this statement, but with a slight clarification. For me, the musical aspect is the most important. If a musical is based on a book or a non-musical film and a new score was written primarily for it, I will consider it original. Not an original work but an original musical. The situation with a song is a little different because, for example, copying words can become a serious problem. In such cases, I use the originality checker online at https://phdessay.com/originality-checker/ to ensure my text is unique. Now, this is one of the most important criteria when checking content because having access to the Internet cannot guarantee the complete safety of your files. Everything can be shared with one wrong click.

Updated On: 12/19/22 at 10:32 AM

[JasonC3]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 10:56am

From Title of Show's "An Original Musical":

Song video

[BLANK PAPER, spoken]
Shut your face
(sung)
I'm an original musical
Original musical
Those other shows can step to the rear
If you lend me your ear
I’m gonna ease all your fear
And tell you all you need is what’s right up here

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 11:09am

Jarethan said: "I can imagine, however, someone arguing that the movie Moulin Rouge was an original musical because the story was new."

Moulin Rouge is based on/inspired by the opera La Traviata.

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 11:21am

Gettin' The Band Back Together?

Something Rotten (kind of, since Shakespeare is involved) ?

[Kad]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 11:22am

“Original musical” is something that basically is meaningless at this point, and the fixation on shows being “original” is just as meaningless. It’s just shorthand for people wanting to dismiss jukebox musicals or stage adaptations of certain films out of hand. In other words, it’s an attempt at gatekeeping what musicals “should” be. 

[SeanD2]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 12:25pm

Kad said: "“Original musical” is something that basically is meaningless at this point, and the fixation on shows being “original” is just as meaningless. It’s just shorthand for people wanting to dismiss jukebox musicals or stage adaptations of certain films out of hand. In other words, it’s an attempt at gatekeeping what musicals “should” be."

Exactly! The only reason there's any debate about the definition is because people want to protect shows they love from being considered "unoriginal." Guess what? Who cares as long as it's good!

• Sweeney Todd: Not Original 
• A Little Night Music: Not Original
• Passion: Not Original
• Funny Thing ... Forum: Not Original
• Oklahoma: Not Original
• The Sound of Music: Not Original
• Carousel: Not Original
• South Pacific: Not Original
• Phantom of the Opera: Not Original
• Cabaret: Not Original
• Chicago: Not Original
• Fun Home: Not Original
• The Band's Visit: Not Original
• Promises Promises: Not Original
• Wicked: Not Original
• Godspell: Not Original

 

[Patty3]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 12:59pm

SeanD2 said: "Kad said: "“Original musical” is something that basically is meaningless at this point, and the fixation on shows being “original” is just as meaningless. It’s just shorthand for people wanting to dismiss jukebox musicals or stage adaptations of certain films out of hand. In other words, it’s an attempt at gatekeeping what musicals “should” be."

Exactly! The only reason there's any debate about the definition is because people want to protect shows they love from being considered "unoriginal." Guess what? Who cares as long as it's good!

• Sweeney Todd: Not Original
• A Little Night Music: Not Original
• Passion:Not Original
• Funny Thing ... Forum:Not Original
• Oklahoma: Not Original
• The Sound of Music: Not Original
• Carousel:Not Original
• South Pacific:Not Original
• Phantom of the Opera:Not Original
• Cabaret:Not Original
• Chicago:Not Original
• Fun Home:Not Original
• The Band's Visit:Not Original
• Promises Promises:Not Original
• Wicked:Not Original
• Godspell:Not Original

"

An Original Musical to me is a brand new idea and story that does not come from another source as in a movie, book, short story, or play. When you think about it there are very few original musicals. Recently shows like a A Strange Loop, Something Rotten would be examples.

Updated On: 12/12/22 at 12:59 PM

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 1:17pm

SeanD2 said: "The only reason there's any debate about the definition is because people want to protect shows they love from being considered "unoriginal."

I’m going to have to agree with this if people are going to try and claim Shrek and Moulin Rouge are original musicals.

There’s an argument to be made that nothing is original. Even Urinetown, which I consider to be an original musical, is still inspired by an experience the authors had while traveling overseas. It’s not based on a prior form of popular entertainment but it is based on real life experience. Does that mean it’s not original? Who gets to decide?

[gypsy101]

Posted: 12/12/22 at 1:57pm

CATSNYrevival said: "Mamma Mia, for example, is an original story that didn’t really exist in a prior form of entertainment that uses pre-existing music. It was eligible for best musical as a new musical but it’s up to the individual to decide if it’s an original musical. There are no concrete rules."

except for how Mamma Mia! is a complete rip-off of Buona Sera, Mrs. Campbell which was also the basis of Carmelina.