ARE secondary ticket sellers evil leeches, as Hamilton producer believes?

[NewYorkTheater]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 9:33am

In announcing the rise of "premium" seats at Hamilton to $849 (a record), lead producer Jeffrey Seller told the Times; "What has certainly been frustrating to me, as a business owner, is to see that my product is being resold at many times its face value and my team isn’t sharing in those profits...It's not fair."

Is it unfair to theatergoers too?

[schubox]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 9:49am

NewYorkTheater said: "In announcing the rise of "premium" seats at Hamilton to $849 (a record), lead producer Jeffrey Seller told the Times; "What has certainly been frustrating to me, as a business owner, is to see that my product is being resold at many times its face value and my team isn’t sharing in those profits...It's not fair."

Is it unfair to theatergoers too?

 

"

Yet he still made the profits off the original ticket sales. So suddenly raising the ticket prices seems less like they want "real fans" to get tickets and more they're pissed that they could have been selling these tickets for way more all along. How greedy. I mean I get that their sole motivation is to make money, but I can go see 4+ other shows at full face value for one Hamilton premium ticket price

[sundaymourning6am]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 9:51am

Jeffrey Seller sounds like an intensely out of touch asshole in this entire article. He was angry that him and his team weren't partaking in the scalpers profits? He sounds like it's causing him to eat cat food at night because he's not making any money. He's making hundreds of thousands of dollars off this show and it recouped months ago. 

This quote is the most asinine thing I've: "By raising prices, he said, “In some ways, we’re taking from the rich to give to the poor, because there’s no question those premiums are subsidizing those $10 tickets.”

Please, once again, the other $475 premium tickets couldn't subsidize another 20 $10 tickets? He sounds like we should all bow before him for putting more tickets at lottery price. Now we have 1/10,000 chances to win one of 44 tickets instead of 22 tickets. 

Pricing tickets at $849 isn't going to stop scalpers. It's only stopping people who could maybe afford to pay the $485 (again, still a crazy price for ANY SHOW). If anyone sees Jeffrey soon, please slap some sense into him. 

[sarahb22]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:01am

I see secondary ticket sellers as the Thenardiers of the business world: just taking advantage of the way the world works.  They see an opportunity - buy up as many tickets as you can to a hot property and sell it back at many times the cost to theatergoers desperate to see a show - and they take it.

They wouldn't exist if the theatergoers would refuse to buy the tickets, but of course that's not what happens.  I'm sure there are times the scalpers lose money, but with the success of Hamilton I'm also sure some of them are making out like bandits.

That said, I think the philosophy of "We'll just make the face price of the ticket idiotically expensive to stop the scalpers" is sort of the wrong way to solve the problem, though. What the industry needs is tighter security and a more reliable way to make sure the person who's buying the ticket is the one who's seeing the show, NOT to soak honest buyers by making ticket prices so expensive that many people are priced right out of the market.  That's sort of like trying to stop a flu epidemic by making sure everybody gets sick.

[Kad]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:07am

I think secondary ticket sellers certainly have a right to do what they do... if people want to pay a premium to secure hard-to-get tickets, and they want to pay to not have to wait to see the show, they should be able to do so.

The issue with Hamilton tickets is that through bot-assisted mass purchasing, the secondary market has grown to the point that it is competing directly with the official sources of tickets. People who don't want to pay a premium to ensure they get tickets they like are being limited that chance.

Seller's solution seems to be rather than limiting the secondary market's ability to acquire mass amounts of stock, hiking up prices to be comparable with the secondary market. Which seems to be missing the point.

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:09am

Who's to say some of the secondary ticket sellers aren't Hamilton producers themselves?

[rjm516]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:09am

Seriously, Sellers made a great decision once (taking on Hamilton) and then everything he has done since has done nothing but convince me that he is the evil leech. 

[Eurotrash]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:11am

If vendors don't wan't to charge the market-clearing price for something, because they are worried it makes them look too greedy, in the internet age, a secondary market is inevitable and there is surely little that can be done about this, so complaining is pointless.

They are free to make it less elitist by having more stand-by seats, moving to a bigger theatre, cutting promotion, or opening a second production. That's it, because it's just about supply and demand.  

[MyLife]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:15am

sundaymourning6am said: "Jeffrey Seller sounds like an intensely out of touch asshole in this entire article. He was angry that him and his team weren't partaking in the scalpers profits? He sounds like it's causing him to eat cat food at night because he's not making any money. He's making hundreds of thousands of dollars off this show and it recouped months ago. 

This quote is the most asinine thing I've: "By raising prices, he said, “In some ways, we’re taking from the rich to give to the poor, because there’s no question those premiums are subsidizing those $10 tickets.”

Please, once again, the other $475 premium tickets couldn't subsidize another 20 $10 tickets? He sounds like we should all bow before him for putting more tickets at lottery price. Now we have 1/10,000 chances to win one of 44 tickets instead of 22 tickets. 

Pricing tickets at $849 isn't going to stop scalpers. It's only stopping people who could maybe afford to pay the $485 (again, still a crazy price for ANY SHOW). If anyone sees Jeffrey soon, please slap some sense into him. "

You're entitled to your opinion of how this article makes Seller sound. And I am entitled to mine.

It is my opinion that your comment makes you sound like a whiny, out of touch child. Seller isn't saying he's poor or eating cat food. His issue is that scalpers, who didn't put any of their own money into funding the hit show, are profiting off ticket sales, making it harder for the public to access tickets. If tickets are going to go for a higher price, Seller and his team have every right to claim those profits before the scalpers do. Hamilton is his baby, Hamilton is his show. The profits should be his too. 

And you have the nerve to complain about Seller increasing the lotto seats by over 100%. I'm thankful enough to have the opportunity to get one of the 21 tickets. The news that there will be 46 is incredible! 10,000 entrants for 21 seats: if you and a partner enter for every performance, that averages out to you winning the lotto once every two years (if you each enter for 2 tickets). 10,000 entrants for 46 makes that about winning once a year... not so bad, and surely better than you having no chance at all if Seller decided to sell those first two rows for $849 too. So yes, if you want to see Hamilton that badly be a little grateful that there are more lottery seats available at that price. 

[macnyc]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:18am

Sellers can put a lid on the whole scalping business just by not allowing Ticketmaster to resell. It's at his discretion. Yes, people would still be able to resell on StubHub and Craigslist and other sites, but TM is the main engine of the frenzy. It's just so easy to put tickets up for sale there for price you want. And buyers like the guarantee that the tickets are genuine and they won't be turned away at the door. (StubHub has a guarantee, too, of course, to reimburse your money if the tickets are fake, but it's much better to actually know the tickets are real.)

 

Yes, I agree with Lin-Manuel that the bots have to be shut down, but there's a lot Hamilton producers can do on their own.

 

It reminds me of the old joke about the guy who was convicted of murdering both his parents. At his sentencing, he stands pathetically before the judge and pleads, "Have mercy on a poor orphan." Sellers has created this beast and he can stop it, pretty much singlehandedly.

Updated On: 6/9/16 at 10:18 AM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:19am

He's really just deploying a variation on the strategy that The Producers team used when they created Premium Seat pricing that was eventually adopted by all the shows (and kept in place when theatre owners hiked the rents wanting their cut of the profits ).  

These ticket resales have always been around and even more common with concerts and sporting events.  Outlawing the practice would be a Herculean task that would have to address all types of ticket resales.  Just sorting out the jurisdictions would be a nightmare as well as justifying the regulation on the age-old capitalist venture of secondary markets.  The producers could try a "not for resale" contractual clause on the ticket, but good luck with trying to track and litigate offenders which would be at the legal cost of the producers.

[Eurotrash]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:23am

There is no 'right' to any profits, if they construct a market that legally allows others to capture these monopoly profits. It's their own fault, and only they can fix it.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:37am

macnyc said: "Sellers can put a lid on the whole scalping business just by not allowing Ticketmaster to resell. It's at his discretion. Yes, people would still be able to resell on StubHub and Craigslist and other sites, but TM is the main engine of the frenzy. It's just so easy to put tickets up for sale there for price you want. And buyers like the guarantee that the tickets are genuine and they won't be turned away at the door. (StubHub has a guarantee, too, of course, to reimburse your money if the tickets are fake, but it's much better to actually know the tickets are real.)"

THANK YOU for bringing up the Ticketmaster resell option.

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:42am

My opinion: Tickets resellers are leeches. Everybody here has been saying this continually until of course they decide to raise the prices then you pretend that this whole time you haven’t been saying how ridiculous the resellers were for charging 1200 for tickets. Seeing that people were paying that much would make them raise the prices. It’s simple economics and a ripple effect. Also making the prices that high makes the bots less likely to buy that many which seems to be what they are trying to do.

I do think it’s very problematic how the expanded the number of premium tickets and raised the prices to 849 but hey, I wouldn’t be paying for premium tickets anyway. People can still buy relatively normal prices tickets and there are more lottery tickets. I think it’s possible (and likely) after the main cast leaves and Tony hype dies down these prices will go down. I think people have to realize now that Hamilton hype is at its highest is not the time to get Hamilton tickets for economical prices. Wait like 6-8 months.

 

 

[Cupid Boy2]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:44am

The prices tickets are fetching on the secondary market is what the public has deemed they are worth. Sellers is simply reacting to the market given that they've been underpriced. As the risk bearing entity, I don't see what's so evil about wanting to capitalize on that. 

And eliminating the Ticketmaster resale feature isn't going to stop someone else from capitalizing on how in demand this show is. 

[sundaymourning6am]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:52am

@MyLife who said you weren't entitled to you opinion? 

Oh, please tell me about how Jeffrey Seller took a HUGE RISK. It wasn't like Hamilton had sold-out run at the Public, or a well known writer/star, or cancellation lines every night at the Public. He should be coddled and showered in cash, and the finest of meats (why not?), for the risk he took. Where's the statue for his bravery? Let's throw him a parade. It's not like he's not a millionaire many times over from Rent either. 

Jeffrey Seller used to be all about making theatre accessible (Rent) to those who wouldn't be able to afford full priced tickets. Now he's doing the opposite. I was able to buy two orchestra seats for $199 on whatever day the AMEX pre-sale happened. I will be right next to the fools who paid $849, too. After I see the show, I can be done with it, happy to have seen it as I'm sure it's quite enjoyable, and never give it another thought.

I'm not calling Seller a greedy d*** because I can't see the show, because luckily I have the means to buy the "cheap" tickets, I'm calling him a greedy d*** because he seems to have lost all of original morals. He doesn't want to bring young people to the theatre anymore. He just wants to make his bottom line bigger. 

Ah, capitalism. 

Updated On: 6/9/16 at 10:52 AM

[mariel9]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 10:54am

Sellers can put a lid on the whole scalping business just by not allowing Ticketmaster to resell. It's at his discretion.

Any knowledgeable speculation as to WHY they haven't done this? Surely that would make the tickets less appealing to the bot buyers.

[macnyc]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:09am

mariel9 said: "Sellers can put a lid on the whole scalping business just by not allowing Ticketmaster to resell. It's at his discretion.

Any knowledgeable speculation as to WHY they haven't done this? Surely that would make the tickets less appealing to the bot buyers."

 

I wish someone would ask him that question directly. This is what he says in the Chicago Tribune article:

 

Q: Do you have a deal with StubHub, like Major League Baseball?

A: We do not have any deal with any secondary players whatsoever. Ticketmaster has this thing called Ticketmaster Plus, where they allow tickets bought on their site to be resold on their site. The theory is that if that is going to happen anyway, we'd rather maintain our relationship with that consumer. So there is that, if you really have to have a ticket at any price.

 

He says, "...where they allow tickets bought on their site to be resold on their site." He makes it sound like it's something TM forces on productions. But that can't be the case because not all events have resales.

 

But he's obviously trying to make it seem as if Ticketmaster resales are not up to him.

 

 

 

 

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:18am

sundaymourning6am said: "@MyLife who said you weren't entitled to you opinion? 

Oh, please tell me about how Jeffrey Seller took a HUGE RISK. It wasn't like Hamilton had sold-out run at the Public, or a well known writer/star, or cancellation lines every night at the Public. He should be coddled and showered in cash, and the finest of meats (why not?), for the risk he took. Where's the statue for his bravery? Let's throw him a parade. It's not like he's not a millionaire many times over from Rent either. 

Jeffrey Seller used to be all about making theatre accessible (Rent) to those who wouldn't be able to afford full priced tickets. Now he's doing the opposite. I was able to buy two orchestra seats for $199 on whatever day the AMEX pre-sale happened. I will be right next to the fools who paid $849, too. After I see the show, I can be done with it, happy to have seen it as I'm sure it's quite enjoyable, and never give it another thought.

I'm not calling Seller a greedy d*** because I can't see the show, because luckily I have the means to buy the "cheap" tickets, I'm calling him a greedy d*** because he seems to have lost all of original morals. He doesn't want to bring young people to the theatre anymore. He just wants to make his bottom line bigger. 

Ah, capitalism. 

 

"

if the prices were cheaper all the bots would literally buy them and sell them for monstrous amount of money. That is what has been happening... Rent didn't have this problem and was not selling anywhere  near as much and came out before the internet. In fact i would say a big reason for Rent popularity was because of the $20 lottery tickets and cheaper prices. 

 I do think Seller is a little greedy and exploiting Hamilton as money making machine. But he did expand the number of lottery tickets and people forget that 20,000 NYC kids are seeing this for 10.00

 

how do you think he can make is so young people can afford to see Hamilton? There is literally no way.... 

[sarahb22]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:19am

mariel9 said: "Sellers can put a lid on the whole scalping business just by not allowing Ticketmaster to resell. It's at his discretion.

Any knowledgeable speculation as to WHY they haven't done this? Surely that would make the tickets less appealing to the bot buyers."

There's been speculation that Ticketmaster makes money on the resold tickets to Hamilton. If that's the case, you can see why they'd be reluctant to agree to the no resale option.  It's a cash cow for them.

[aaaaaa15]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:30am

I think Seller is an extremely smart man who knows what he's doing. I admire that he takes on projects that aren't obviously commercially appealing and then helps to make them so.

The fact is, these are the prices that people have been willing to pay to see the show. It will absolutely hinder scalpers. Scalpers wont be able to sell the tickets for much more than those premium prices. 

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:35am

I don't like Ticketmaster anyway for Broadway shows, because it's nigh on impossible to search across multiple dates, but the option to resell tickets for anything other than initial asking price is ridiculous.

[ljay889]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:39am

Jason Danieley has a GREAT Facebook post about this right now.

[After Eight]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:44am

"I admire that he takes on projects that aren't obviously commercially appealing and then helps to make them so."

 

In what way wasn't Hamilton commercially appealing, since at the Public, it received raves, awards, hype galore, and sell-out status. I can't think of any property that was not more commercially appealing.

 

Moreover, since we're told time and time again that the hype has nothing do with the show's success, which is due solely to the show itself, then how does the producer get any credit for making it "commercially appealing?"

Charging $850  for theatre tickets? One may have to accept it, but ADMIRE it, and admire him? Sorry. No.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 6/9/16 at 11:45am

Jason's post: https://www.facebook.com/JDanieley/posts/555838991267391