Can someone tell me the reason why washington and burr and hamilton arent white?- Page 2

[leeleecocororo]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:21pm

Can someone tell me the reason why Radames and Amneris are white?

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:23pm

You'll be surprised that the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence also wrote this: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part3/3h490t.html

[sparepart973]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:26pm

Wow, I am floored by the fact that people are actually entertaining this question and answering it seriously. I've read some seriously catty responses to much more serious and less loaded questions. 

The majority of the cast and protagonists are POC, while the only antagonist is lily white. Do you really not get it? Wow..

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:36pm

KCW said: "First off, Hamilton wad actually from St. Croix (is that how you spell it?) In the show they mention that a few times so Hamilton was actually not white.

"Dropped in the middle of a forgotten spot in the Caribbean " (Alexander Hamilton)

"Privately calls him creole bastard in his taunts "(Adams Administration) 

I an sure people will explain Lin reasonings, but I also want to add that it is very rare to find a white person who can rap well.

 

"

With respect, that isn't what the word "creole" meant in the time of the real-life Hamilton, who was a mixture of European ancestries: English, French and Scot. During colonial times in the Americas, a creole was one of European ancestry born in the New World. The term "mestizo" was used to mean half-European/half-Amerindian, just as "mulatto" meant half-black/half-white.

But since such Creoles were largely a result of colonialism, we no longer need a special word for white people born in the Americas. So the word has changed, and several (not all) internet dictionaries now show the word to mean "of mixed descent", as you use it.

Hamilton wasn't "from" St. Croix (your spelling is fine); per Wiki, his mother moved him and his brother there from the British Virgin Islands when the boys were young. As others have written, the point of the casting is that the story of this HAMILTON is being told by contemporary Americans, and we are a diverse lot.

I do agree that, whatever his color, the fact that the real-life Hamilton was from the Caribbean (like so many mainland immigrants to NYC today) is a reason why the story appealed to Miranda and has resonance to some people who might otherwise have less interest. But I wouldn't call that a "publicity stunt." It's an integral part of the show.

[henrikegerman]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:46pm

Tune in next week when we ask why Edwin Drood isn't a man.

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:47pm

sparepart973 said: "Wow, I am floored by the fact that people are actually entertaining this question and answering it seriously. I've read some seriously catty responses to much more serious and less loaded questions. 

The majority of the cast and protagonists are POC, while the only antagonist is lily white. Do you really not get it? Wow..

 

"

i mean king George was originally black as well in the original reading im 2013. Joshua Henry played him. I think changing him to white was a last minute change to mark divergences between English and Americans and was more of a stylistic choice. I don't think it's really supposed to be about white oppression on minorities like some people think. 

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:47pm

double post 

Updated On: 3/30/16 at 07:47 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:52pm

I now see others got to the 18th century meaning of "creole" before I did. I apologizer for the duplication.

But let me add that being "creole" was still very much a "thing" in colonial culture, even if creoles were the same racial background as their European counterparts. Creole was a synonym for "backward" and "uneducated" in many places and a creole was thought to be socially inferior to a native European, while remaining superior to a mestizo, mulatto, octoroon (1/8 black), etc.

These distinctions meant much more in Caribbean, Spanish and French cultures where intermarriage between races was not as stigmatized as it was in the English colonies of North America. Obviously, intermarriage wasn't considered ideal, or no distinction would have been made for mestizos; but it wasn't a social crisis.

And, in fact, there was apparently more intermarriage even among English colonials in Virginia and Massachusetts (I don't have a source at hand, but I have read this) than what we would assume from our history books. At some point, American history was "whitewashed", but early settlers often "defected" to live with Indian communities and Native Americans often assimilated into European communities..

So whether it is HAMILTON's intent or not, its cast may present a better racial representation of the early U.S. than the musical, 1776.

[sparepart973]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 7:57pm

And yet that's the conclusion that most people would make. 

I think it will be clear whether or not they will break this mold by replacement casts and the casts they hire for Chicago, LA and eventually London. But I think the whole premise of the show is that the leads are played by non-white people playing essentially the whitest of people in a manner that is completely far removed from what they would have sounded like. 

Casting POC who sing in R&B and rap makes viewers check out their racial biases at the door and include POC in the narrative of the history of the making of America. [quotes]

 

[ChiTheaterFan]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 8:26pm

sparepart973 said: "Wow, I am floored by the fact that people are actually entertaining this question and answering it seriously. I've read some seriously catty responses to much more serious and less loaded questions. 

The majority of the cast and protagonists are POC, while the only antagonist is lily white. Do you really not get it? Wow..

 

"

Yes that was my reaction to the original post as well. But some of the responses were thoughtful and interesting, which was really why I chimed in. Sometimes ignorant questions can spark interesting discussion, even if not for the benefit of the person who originally asked the questions. Cheers to what I think has become a poignant and intellectual chat!  (While it lasts....)

[KCW]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 8:59pm

Clearly I need to read Chernow's book, I started the first chapter then started to read another biography, etc. but I am sorry that I imposed false information, but hey, I learned some stuff.

[wolfwriter2]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 9:30pm

One remains "ignorant" if one does not ask a question to seek more information and knowledge.

Thank you to everybody who seriously responded in this thread, which I found fascinating and informative.

This same question has come up a number of times among well-educated friends who, looked to me for an answer and I didn't have one. And, I'm the one who could care less about casting as long as the best people play the roles.

What sparked the  conversation, was one of the group questioned why such a fuss was made over Jonathan Pryce, years ago, in Miss Saigon and yet, they had just seen a Japanese man play the lead in The King and I. He wondered were there no talented Thai actors. This led into the Hamilton discussion.

I assumed it was an artistic choice with a point. Thanks to this thread, I understand it better and am now curious enough to want to read the Chernow book.

Sorry to be in the "ignorant" group, but I appreciate learning something from reading your posts.

[ChiTheaterFan]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 9:41pm

Wolfwriter I apologize if I offended with the word ignorant. I did not mean to imply that you were in the ignorant group simply if you had asked the same question and would agree based in your thoughtful response that you are not. I agree seeking legitimate answers to which you do not know the answers is not ignorance and I agree with your definition. I was referring not to the asking of the question itself, but to the fact that the person who asked it later said (in response to some very thoughtful comments) basically "I see you're saying it was a publicity stunt" (which no one was saying) which did not seem to me to have considered the thoughtful responses. So to me, it does not seem the person who posed the question WAS actually posting to seek more information and knowledge but was instead trolling for an argument about the diverse casting being a "publicity stunt."  Fortunately I think the thread evolved into something far more interesting and I think we all have learned something (or at least I have). I hope that clarifies what I meant. I certainly do not think someone is ignorant just because they did not know the basis for the casting decisions. 

 

I realize I worded my prior comment poorly and apologize for that. 

Updated On: 3/30/16 at 09:41 PM

[wolfwriter2]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 9:47pm

Thanks ChiTheaterFan. I understand what you meant and yes, I agree, it seemed a bit flippant of the OP. I'm glad for the seriousness of the thread, though. I'm sure we're not the only ones who learned from it and that's never a bad thing. 

[laughingplace]

Posted: 3/30/16 at 10:00pm

Sorry I did not mean it that way., Sorry it was seen to be written that way.

Updated On: 3/31/16 at 10:00 PM

[MrSweetNAwful]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 12:31am

leeleecocororo said: "Can someone tell me the reason why Radames and Amneris are white?"

[gypsy101]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 1:29am

leeleecocororo said: "Can someone tell me the reason why Radames and Amneris are white?"

 

I think this is actually a better question than OP's tbh. I think an all-black production of Aida could be interesting.

Updated On: 3/31/16 at 01:29 AM

[rcwr]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 3:10am

Another reason I've heard is that most audience members will come in with at least something of an image in their minds about the founding fathers. So, having the founding fathers played by actors of color circumvents previous notions in the audience's minds and lets the audience sort of skip or sidestep old notions of who those people are, leaving them open to connecting more directly and immediately with the characters as they are here.

Updated On: 3/31/16 at 03:10 AM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 8:31am

^^^^ Absolutely, rcwr, and as you probably know, that's exactly what the Romantics meant by "estrangement" and Brecht meant by the "alienation effect": forcing viewers to think about why the things and people on stage look "odd" relative to the audience's preconceptions.

[SDV]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 8:41am

leeleecocororo said: "Can someone tell me the reason why Radames and Amneris are white?"

Touche.

I think many very valid reasons are given here, but on top of all of that, I'd be shocked if anyone who had seen the show looked at the actors and thought, "They were okay but it would have been so much better with white folks!" For me, they cast the best actors for each role regardless of skin color. Each actor was perfectly cast and embodied their character beautifully. I'd hate to have missed out on DD's Jefferson, for example, because they insisted on matching the character's race.  

[neonlightsxo]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 9:27am

Why isn't the OP concerned about Jefferson and Madison? And John Laurens? And the Schuyler sisters?

[Kad]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 9:55am

...have people been living under a rock for the past year while Hamilton took NYC by storm or something? 

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 10:41am

Kad said: "...have people been living under a rock for the past year while Hamilton took NYC by storm or something? "

Apparently. Or they were waiting for Lin to go on vacation. 

[Wilmingtom]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 11:07am

If you have to ask, you won't understand the reason.

[Broadway Forever2]

Posted: 3/31/16 at 11:21am

LizzieCurry said: "Kad said: "...have people been living under a rock for the past year while Hamilton took NYC by storm or something? "

Apparently. Or they were waiting for Lin to go on vacation. 

 

"

Haha im glad he's on vacation. Hopefully it's somewhere remote and he's not aware of the "controversy" it would have blown over by then.