Chenoweth dropped from Christian Women Conference- Page 5

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 12:35am

Well, it sounds like it was a basic Tony award acceptance speech. I mean, isn't the implication of every person who gets up there and says, "First of all I would like to thank god for the incredible gifts He gave me, and my manager Morty for being totally cutthroat and getting me this job, I know where the bodies are buried, Morty!" really saying that god loves them better, that they prayed harder?

I mean, that's the take away message I get from those speeches.

Posted: 9/16/05 at 12:46am

Oh, I get humbleness. Lots and lots of humbleness.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 12:51am

"Also, if the Jews are G-d's chosen people, why did Jesus convert to Christianity from being Jewish?"

Jesus never converted to Christianity. He lived and died a Jew. This is a common misconception. The Passion takes place during the Passover feast- the night he was arrested, Jesus was celebrating the Passover meal with the Apostles.

"The one thing about the Catholic Faith that discusts me, is how unaccepting we are as a religion, people you associate with, lifestyles, and especially other religions. I mean even the other Christian religions are a bit more accepting than we are. Maybe this will change... but it probably won't.

And I know Kristin isn't Catholic... but we're the most extreme non-accepting faith of the Christians."

Again, I'm trying to stay out of this debate, but that simply isn't true. There are Protestant faiths (like the Jerry Falwell clans) who are far less accepting than the Catholic Church. Are we perfect? Absolutely not, not by a long shot. We're not the most accepting, but to call it the most unaccepting is wrong. Certainly not with people of other faiths (I could list the various ecumenical efforts the Church has undertaken in the past decade, but that would make this even more off-topic). As for lifestyles, I'm sure you're getting at gays there, and in that regard I would agree with you. I'm not sure what other lifestyles you could mean. What do you mean by people you associate with? I associate every day with all types of people, as most people in this world do.

Posted: 9/16/05 at 12:56am

Adam - as long as the Catholics refer to themselves as 'the one TRUE church', all bets are off.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 12:59am

Jesus TOTALLY converted to Catholicism when he said, "Peter, no man is a rock, no many is an island, and a rock feels no pain, and an island never cries, and upon your rock I will build my church" and then John the Baptist converted him to Catholicism. THE one TRUE church.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 1:17am

But Jesus said (and I'm quoting from Matthew's gospel now) "Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but to my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:17-18 ).

There's nothing in that passage to suggest he's become a Catholic. He continues to be a practicing Jew the rest of his life. Essentially, he's appointing Peter as his successor, to carry on the mission.

He's also not baptized after that. Matthew has him baptized by John at the end of Chapter 3. Mark's gospel begins with the Baptism, Luke places it in Chapter 3, John barely mentions it. By all accounts, the Baptism is before most of his ministry, certainly well before he's appointing successors.

As for the "one true church" comment, the church no longer believes that being Catholic is the only way to get to Heaven. That position was amended during the Second Vatican Council. There are still a good number of Catholics (Mel Gibosn being the most famous) who believe that to be true. But officially, that statement was revised. I'll look up the exact quote from Vatican II sometime tomorrow night- I don't have the energy to do it right now.


Updated On: 9/16/05 at 01:17 AM

[JerseyGirl2]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 2:05am

And the significance of the crown of thorns that Jesus wore was for Pilot to crown him the "King of Jews." He was absolutely identified as Jewish to his death.

I must say that I find Catholics as a whole more accepting than many protestant denominations. I am considering coverting. I have been for years, actually. I am a recovering southern baptist. Honestly, my church had me so brainwashed and convinced that anyone that was not a member was going straight to hell that I am still dealing with that. Growing up the, the members of our church were white, middle to upper class families. That was pretty much it. My parents didn't attend, so I was child that everyone tried to parent. And they basically told me that it was my responsibility to get my parents to attend church or they would go to hell. Big responsibility for a kid. Meanwhile, my grandmother's catholic church had biracial, gay, straight, married, unmarried... didn't seem to matter. I have much respect for that.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 2:27am

Repeat after me . . .

organized religion is a tool of the devil.

Think about it - One basic story, three different endings, everyone killing each other to prove our ending is right. Who else but the devil could devise such a simple plan to create so much mayhem and hate.


Free will is a gift. Use it. Faith is wonderful, blind faith in anything or anyone is dangerous, and can be used as a tool for evil.

Repeat after me: organized religion is tool of the devil.

(I used to say that to my dad at High Holidays and he would just sit there and get red . . .)

[Chlydomnestra]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 8:05am

Let me just say that in my belief system, and my interpretation...I believe there will be all denominations of Christians in heaven. Catholic, Methodist, Episcopal, Church of God, Church of Christ Pentacostal, Presbytyrian, Baptist, Lutheran, Church of Christian Science...etc. The common factor is that they are all Christian. I admit, being raised Baptist, now non-denominational, the church was not the most open-arms type place. I think that Baptists who think there will be no Catholics in heaven, or Seventh Day Adventist who think we're all worshipping on the wrong day and going to hell, are being narrow minded and naive. Because no matter your church doctrine, drink-don't drink---dance-don't dance--gamble-don't gamble, etc...all Christians are forgiven by grace. Man made these church doctrines based on their interpretations of the Bible, and that's why we have so many denominations...pick whichever one you're comfortable (if you want) and let it be.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 9:51am

But, the condition precedent to getting into heaven is still accepting Christ as your personal savior. To me, this fact alone dictating whether or not you go to heaven is problematic.

I know that many people have vey deep faith. That is great for them. Christians believe that Christ died for their sins, that he is THE son of God, who will return someday to lead those who believe out from under this mess we have created on earth. (A very simplistic interpretation but I am no seminary student. Just someone who has been targeted to be saved many times because I happen to be one of the "chosen people.")

If you do not accept Christ as your personal savior, then no matter how you have lived your life, no matter what good deeds you have done, then you are by default not going to heaven. You can have lived a life of terror and evil, and on your death bed seek absolution, and then be saved. This to me makes no sense. It teaches that there are no consequences to your actions on earth, and how you treat your fellow man is irrelevant. I cannot believe that any diety, especially one that supposedly loves his/her children, would put one conditoin above a lifetime of good works or evil.

As many on this board have stated, there are many so-called "Christians" who lead their lives completely opposite to the teachings of Christ. And, many who do not accept Christ as their personal savior, but, do live their lives and treat people in accordance with his teachings: to me, these people are far more "Christian" than those who claim to be. Actions speak louder than words, and if you follow the basic tenants his teachings, regardless of your faith, then you are a good person, and your actions towards others, rather than your willingness to accept him as your personal savior, should determine your fate.

I have no problem with people of faith. I in fact envy them a bit. I just cannot accept that one path is the right path. The problem I have is with the very issue you raise below (as it applies to Christians) - religion and faith have been used to divide, segregate and tear us apart, focusing on our sins and differences as a way to justify how the one faith or denomnination is the right one. There is so much we all have in common, but religion seems intent on dividing us just so that one church, temple, or mosque can say "we are right and you are wrong." I believe that they are all right and all wrong. How you lead your life and treat others is what matters. And, if there is a heaven and hell, accepting Christ, or anyone else as your personal savior will not dictate your place. Your acts and actions on earth will.

Sorry for the long response, but I did not want you to think I was just being flip in my prior post.

[Lorelai]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 10:07am

GOOD FOR HER!!

[LouW95]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 10:12am

I am sorry that Kristin and others tried to reason with the likes of Pat Robertson and extremist religious groups. These religious fanatics are filled with bigotry and other intolerant attitudes. I know them from childhood. They are the most un-Christian of all! I did warn posters on this site of this fact when Kristin first appeared on the 700 Club show. Some here defended her. Now they see my thinking was right on target. We need a tough, united stand against all bigots, especially those hiding in their bibles spouting their brand of morality at the world. You cant bargain with the devil (as the religious folks often say).

[Tom1071]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 10:33am

"The one thing about the Catholic Faith that discusts me, is how unaccepting we are as a religion, people you associate with, lifestyles, and especially other religions. I mean even the other Christian religions are a bit more accepting than we are."

Actually, having been raised Southern Baptist, I have found them to be more unaccepting than Catholics.

Church of Christ is even worse. My aunt was Church of Christ and she was one of the most judgmental, racist individuals I have ever known. I remember her telling me that she wouldn't watch the television show Gimme' a Break because she didn't want to see a black woman raising white children and she wouldn't watch Diff'rent Strokes because she didn't want to see black children being raised by a white man. She didn't think it was right. She still called herself a christian and believed with all her heart she was heaven bound even though her heart was filled with so much hate.

[DBillyP]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:21am

I am going to try, as best I can, to stay out of the debates raging here. Instead, may I offer some resources?

Please read IF GRACE IS TRUE: WHY GOD WILL SAVE EVERY PERSON by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland.

Also, please read the link.

For the record, Jesus could not have been a Catholic because Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, which could not exist until after Jesus had been crucified, buried and risen again.
Homosexuality and Christianity

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:26am

If he wasn't Catholic then why do many of the Gospels mention that when Jesus appeared to the apostles after he resurrected he was wearing a Notre Dame Fightin' Irish sweatshirt?

[DBillyP]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:27am

Because he is a college football fan.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:30am

1) where in the old tetimate *exactly* is the referance to homosexuality
I'm assuming you meant the Old Testament. Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13

There were a lot of people who heard Kristin speak and were unhappy with her. They found her to be very vain.
Some had a few problems with her speaking, but the majority of the outrage was after she was on The Late Show with David Letterman. They said she was flirting with him (and liking it!) and wearing revealing clothing, when the conference she was dressed modestly. They were claimed she was changing her appearances based on her audience to manipulate them.

And the significance of the crown of thorns that Jesus wore was for Pilot to crown him the "King of Jews." He was absolutely identified as Jewish to his death.
Technically, it was the Romans that identified him as Jewish.

Updated On: 9/16/05 at 11:30 AM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:38am

"They were claimed she was changing her appearances based on her audience to manipulate them."

She was just trying to be popular.

[BobbyBubby]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:51am

Their message boards make me want to puke.

[YessicaB]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:56am

Namo, you crack me up.

I say we should post a link on their page to BWW, wouldn't it be "fun" to see their reactions to this thread?

[Gelfling]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 11:58am

I don't think any argument can be made to these people that would convince them that they are not the Chosen ones who alone know the reallly-really-completely-100%reliable Truth from God.

I found their views amusing though. As Jersey Girl mentioned, there seemed to be a little pettiness after the Columbus conference. Some women were apparently put off by her saying that God had gave her success and the gift of music because Damn, they pray 24/7 and they are still ugly cows married to white trash they don't love! Why didn't God send THEM success?! lol...

So of course, it prompted some of the most investigative members to google her and what they found a transcript of her appearance at the GLBT... plus she did a few other things like playing a witch, being engaged to a Jewish man, kissing Annette Benning, flirting with Letterman... you know... a total slut!

I'm sorry Jersey Girl, I have asked around and there's no transcript available but they planned on releasing the Columbus conference on DVD... I'm guessing she's already on the cut floor in the editing room though!

By the way, Namo... I was just discussing the whole thing with a Christian fan of hers who seemed to think that the WOF had no choice and she argued that in a recent interview, when asked about one night stands, Kristin said that she had to be in love to have sex (not that you have to wait until marriage!! )

So what do we know today we didn't know before? well... Kudish might have gotten lucky and she wasn't dumped because she was preaching tolerance... she was dumped from the conference because of Tango Magazine's Fall Issue! bummer, these Christians are a tough bunch to satisfy, uh?

[smartpenguin78]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 12:56pm

I agree that if the group is political or commercial they have every right to pick and choose speakers as they please. The problem here is this group claims it is neither, they claim to speak for an all powerful God, that is the right and just arbiter of the universe. They have a responsiblity to be held to the higher standard they claim. Bigotry in the name of religion may be a common practice, but we should not be expected to accept it.

Here is my take on the theological argument:

Using the bible to justify hatred, bigotry and unspeakable acts of cruelty has been done for thousands of years, (the unspeakable acts against Native Americans were justified because, "the bible doesn't speak of them" slavery condoned, women condemmed) the latest foray against a new group of people is the same. All of the arguments made here and other places in favor of this type of disgusting treatment of fellow human beings involves the "sin" they commit, expressing a part of who you are in this world needs to no longer be called a SIN.

You can take random quotes and preach hate forever, or you can see beyond it and help each of us act to do some real good in the world.

The teachings of Jesus, especially those which are most likely to have come from the historical Jesus revolve around two distict themes: Love God and those around you, and do not accept the give circumstances as necessarily right.

The most common teaching of Jesus is "Love God with all your heart and body and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." All the synoptic gospels have this exact statement at least once, with it returned to in multiple themes. It is the "Greatest Commandment" and all your treatment of people is supposed to flow from it.
Lots of junk is added in for particular audiences, there is propaganda for whatever group the writer intened to see it, but the underlying theme remains the same.

Youwantitwhen?, If self preservation and denunciantion of other religious beliefs were all there were I would agree with you exactly. The fact is religion, even organized religion does not have to be so specific and exclusive, yes many are. There are many people who don't consider me a Christian because I think heaven would be open to everyone. (if I actually believed in such a place) The thing for me is that spiritual matters can provide such an important and lasting positive impact on people's lives, it is imposible to reject out of hand.

[Hanna from Hamburg]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 1:20pm

Adamgreer -- if the Catholic church truly believes that homosexual sexual activity is wrong, does it believe that homosexual activity by priests with children is NOT wrong? Because "the church" has done a good job of trying to coverup this activity and now they are having to pay people off and deal with the problem. Seems kind of hypocritical.

[YouWantitWhen????]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 1:31pm

SP - I do not disagree with you - there are some religious organizations that do very good things, do not preach hatred, and seek to unify rather than divide. Sadly, I believe this is the minority of organizatons. Faith can be a very wonderful and powerful tool for good, and for some, it is. But for more, or at least the most vocal, it is used as a weapon and definately not a tool for good. I consider myself a spiritual person, and have great respect for those of faith. I just do not trust the institutions themselves.


I hope that makes sense.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 9/16/05 at 1:35pm

Let's be cautious comparing the pedophilia/ephebophilia scandals with homosexuality issues in the Catholic Church. The Vatican would like to equate the two, but they are in no way the same.