Chenoweth dropped from Christian Women Conference — Page 5

Oh, I get humbleness. Lots and lots of humbleness.

Adam - as long as the Catholics refer to themselves as 'the one TRUE church', all bets are off.

But Jesus said (and I'm quoting from Matthew's gospel now) "Blessed are you Simon, son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but to my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 16:17-18 ).

There's nothing in that passage to suggest he's become a Catholic. He continues to be a practicing Jew the rest of his life. Essentially, he's appointing Peter as his successor, to carry on the mission.

He's also not baptized after that. Matthew has him baptized by John at the end of Chapter 3. Mark's gospel begins with the Baptism, Luke places it in Chapter 3, John barely mentions it. By all accounts, the Baptism is before most of his ministry, certainly well before he's appointing successors.

As for the "one true church" comment, the church no longer believes that being Catholic is the only way to get to Heaven. That position was amended during the Second Vatican Council. There are still a good number of Catholics (Mel Gibosn being the most famous) who believe that to be true. But officially, that statement was revised. I'll look up the exact quote from Vatican II sometime tomorrow night- I don't have the energy to do it right now.

Updated On: 9/16/05 at 01:17 AM

Repeat after me . . .

organized religion is a tool of the devil.

Think about it - One basic story, three different endings, everyone killing each other to prove our ending is right. Who else but the devil could devise such a simple plan to create so much mayhem and hate.


Free will is a gift. Use it. Faith is wonderful, blind faith in anything or anyone is dangerous, and can be used as a tool for evil.

Repeat after me: organized religion is tool of the devil.

(I used to say that to my dad at High Holidays and he would just sit there and get red . . .)

But, the condition precedent to getting into heaven is still accepting Christ as your personal savior. To me, this fact alone dictating whether or not you go to heaven is problematic.

I know that many people have vey deep faith. That is great for them. Christians believe that Christ died for their sins, that he is THE son of God, who will return someday to lead those who believe out from under this mess we have created on earth. (A very simplistic interpretation but I am no seminary student. Just someone who has been targeted to be saved many times because I happen to be one of the "chosen people.")

If you do not accept Christ as your personal savior, then no matter how you have lived your life, no matter what good deeds you have done, then you are by default not going to heaven. You can have lived a life of terror and evil, and on your death bed seek absolution, and then be saved. This to me makes no sense. It teaches that there are no consequences to your actions on earth, and how you treat your fellow man is irrelevant. I cannot believe that any diety, especially one that supposedly loves his/her children, would put one conditoin above a lifetime of good works or evil.

As many on this board have stated, there are many so-called "Christians" who lead their lives completely opposite to the teachings of Christ. And, many who do not accept Christ as their personal savior, but, do live their lives and treat people in accordance with his teachings: to me, these people are far more "Christian" than those who claim to be. Actions speak louder than words, and if you follow the basic tenants his teachings, regardless of your faith, then you are a good person, and your actions towards others, rather than your willingness to accept him as your personal savior, should determine your fate.

I have no problem with people of faith. I in fact envy them a bit. I just cannot accept that one path is the right path. The problem I have is with the very issue you raise below (as it applies to Christians) - religion and faith have been used to divide, segregate and tear us apart, focusing on our sins and differences as a way to justify how the one faith or denomnination is the right one. There is so much we all have in common, but religion seems intent on dividing us just so that one church, temple, or mosque can say "we are right and you are wrong." I believe that they are all right and all wrong. How you lead your life and treat others is what matters. And, if there is a heaven and hell, accepting Christ, or anyone else as your personal savior will not dictate your place. Your acts and actions on earth will.

Sorry for the long response, but I did not want you to think I was just being flip in my prior post.

I am sorry that Kristin and others tried to reason with the likes of Pat Robertson and extremist religious groups. These religious fanatics are filled with bigotry and other intolerant attitudes. I know them from childhood. They are the most un-Christian of all! I did warn posters on this site of this fact when Kristin first appeared on the 700 Club show. Some here defended her. Now they see my thinking was right on target. We need a tough, united stand against all bigots, especially those hiding in their bibles spouting their brand of morality at the world. You cant bargain with the devil (as the religious folks often say).

I am going to try, as best I can, to stay out of the debates raging here. Instead, may I offer some resources?

Please read IF GRACE IS TRUE: WHY GOD WILL SAVE EVERY PERSON by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland.

Also, please read the link.

For the record, Jesus could not have been a Catholic because Catholicism is a branch of Christianity, which could not exist until after Jesus had been crucified, buried and risen again.
Homosexuality and Christianity

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Because he is a college football fan.

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"They were claimed she was changing her appearances based on her audience to manipulate them."

She was just trying to be popular.

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Namo, you crack me up.

I say we should post a link on their page to BWW, wouldn't it be "fun" to see their reactions to this thread?

I agree that if the group is political or commercial they have every right to pick and choose speakers as they please. The problem here is this group claims it is neither, they claim to speak for an all powerful God, that is the right and just arbiter of the universe. They have a responsiblity to be held to the higher standard they claim. Bigotry in the name of religion may be a common practice, but we should not be expected to accept it.

Here is my take on the theological argument:

Using the bible to justify hatred, bigotry and unspeakable acts of cruelty has been done for thousands of years, (the unspeakable acts against Native Americans were justified because, "the bible doesn't speak of them" slavery condoned, women condemmed) the latest foray against a new group of people is the same. All of the arguments made here and other places in favor of this type of disgusting treatment of fellow human beings involves the "sin" they commit, expressing a part of who you are in this world needs to no longer be called a SIN.

You can take random quotes and preach hate forever, or you can see beyond it and help each of us act to do some real good in the world.

The teachings of Jesus, especially those which are most likely to have come from the historical Jesus revolve around two distict themes: Love God and those around you, and do not accept the give circumstances as necessarily right.

The most common teaching of Jesus is "Love God with all your heart and body and soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself." All the synoptic gospels have this exact statement at least once, with it returned to in multiple themes. It is the "Greatest Commandment" and all your treatment of people is supposed to flow from it.
Lots of junk is added in for particular audiences, there is propaganda for whatever group the writer intened to see it, but the underlying theme remains the same.

Youwantitwhen?, If self preservation and denunciantion of other religious beliefs were all there were I would agree with you exactly. The fact is religion, even organized religion does not have to be so specific and exclusive, yes many are. There are many people who don't consider me a Christian because I think heaven would be open to everyone. (if I actually believed in such a place) The thing for me is that spiritual matters can provide such an important and lasting positive impact on people's lives, it is imposible to reject out of hand.

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SP - I do not disagree with you - there are some religious organizations that do very good things, do not preach hatred, and seek to unify rather than divide. Sadly, I believe this is the minority of organizatons. Faith can be a very wonderful and powerful tool for good, and for some, it is. But for more, or at least the most vocal, it is used as a weapon and definately not a tool for good. I consider myself a spiritual person, and have great respect for those of faith. I just do not trust the institutions themselves.


I hope that makes sense.