Considering America's gun problem, is ANNIE GET YOUR GUN incapable of being revived responsibly?

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 9/5/24 at 9:49pm

Yesterday’s horrifying school shooting got me thinking about ANNIE GET YOUR GUN. The show has a wonderful collection of songs, but feels like one of the rare once-major shows that we aren’t going to see revived on a large scale.

Not, of course, because of the show’s gender politics, or treatment of Indigenous characters, or the fact that Annie was 15 when she met the years-older Frank Butler, or the fact that the real Frank was an Irishman portrayed as an all-American cowboy. Those things are all fixable, and irrelevant to this conversation.

The problem is, at the show’s core is a celebration of gun-wielding. When hundreds of innocent children and adults die from guns every year, to produce AGYG feels blatantly irresponsible. Sarna Lapine's version at Bay Street tried to fix some problems, but Oakley was a product of her time in the 1800s, the show was a product of the 1940s, and now times are different...and aside from some terrific songs and feisty gender wars, the show has never been that great.

AGYG feels like one of those “to depict is to endorse” situations. “Children will listen,” and we cannot trust some parents to teach responsible gun ownership after taking their kids to see the Annie Oakley musical! Obviously I'm not saying that guns shouldn't appear on stage or on screen: it's just that this particular show centers them in an unavoidable way that adds no positives but many negatives to the cultural conversation. It might be nice if we could all fully disassociate from reality while at a show, but we can't.

The show COULD be produced –– and it does, in amateur & regional theatres –– but I cannot think of a reason why it SHOULD be.

Thoughts? Am I overreacting to innocent children being killed and the theatre's impact on society?

Updated On: 9/5/24 at 09:49 PM

[quizking101]

Posted: 9/5/24 at 10:13pm

I did this show in high school (2009).

Honestly, I see everything else you mentioned being more of a problem than the actual shooting portion. It’s clear that she is a sharpshooter for sport and doesn’t harm anyone in the show. Even with a mild warning (contains prop guns in a non-violent context), it should still be fine.

For what it’s worth though, with arts programs being cut in budget, AGYG is ridiculously cheap in terms of rights and relatively simple to mount - so while these older shows are certainly flawed, they might be all a school could afford to do

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 9/5/24 at 10:21pm

The fact that she is a sharpshooter for sport IS what I see to be the problem: it glorifies the sport and continues the troublesome "guns are cool" narrative. Especially on an educational level, it's probably better for a school to do a public-domain G&S operetta than doing AGYG.

Kinda like the overused Truffaut quote: "there's no such thing as an anti-war film," because with rare exceptions when war is depicted on screen, it looks entertaining.

Updated On: 9/5/24 at 10:21 PM

[Mr. Wormwood]

Posted: 9/5/24 at 11:02pm

I think it sort of depends on the type of theater group and the community. I don't think it's necessarily irresponsible to perform it. But I do think, for many of the reasons you mentioned, that it will fade more and more into obscurity as the years go on. There are former staples of HS & community theater like Lil' Abner, The Pajama Game, Barnum, No No Nanette, etc that have dropped off big time in terms of numbers of productions mounted. I think Annie Get Your Gun has already headed in that direction and will continue to.

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 9/5/24 at 11:17pm

Annie Get Your Gun is a product of its time and I feel like people understand that? The shooting in the show is not in anyway irresponsible. It's literally just target shooting. Something that occurs at every county fair in the country, it's done at the Olympics, there's even a gun range on 20th St. 

I think people are able to discern Guns as used in AGYG versus School Shootings. I think the issue is that people probably don't really have a hunger for the show outside of a boutique situation of something like Encores. The Guns are a distant second as for why it wouldn't be revived today.

[inception]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 1:25am

Yesterday a mentally unstable guy chopped off someone's hand with a butcher knife a block from the building I work at, and then killed an old man on the next block.

Should Sweeney Todd no longer be performed?

I don't believe in handgun ownership.  But I think the bigger issue is lack of support for people with mental health issues.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 1:27am

Although I haven’t seen the show since the Peters revival, I don’t think the guns would be a problem. Target shooting is indeed a sport - and a fun one, I must say. The show glorifies the sport, not murder.

Considering that I thought it was an unbearably cheesy show when I saw it as a teenager twenty years ago, I imagine it would play even worse now - especially, as another poster pointed out, with its depiction of Native Americans. It has some nice songs, but there’s no reason to produce this old chestnut anyway. 

[binau]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 1:49am

There is clearly a deep cultural problem within the US re: school shootings. I think it’s deeper and goes beyond gun laws (although they must obviously contribute). And I think it goes beyond positive attitudes towards guns too. I must admit despite loving the US it’s one of - if not the single most - shocking, strange, horrific and very US-specific problem I can think of. It seems like the most complex and strange interaction between a mental health crisis of social rejection, occasionally but not always a desire to have notoriety, and psychopathy in a backdrop of too easy access to weapons. 

I honestly believe if there was a list of potential contributing factors ‘Annie get your gun’ would be very very low on the list. My general feeling is that people in theatre take ourselves and our art too seriously - I’m sorry to say but musicals are pretty low on the list of things people take seriously and Annie get your gun is so far from serious that it doesn’t matter in my opinion. 
 

[NOWaWarning]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 1:55am

While I agree that the content of the show has next to nothing to do with school shootings, I can see the OP's point. Risk-averse producers might be squeamish about mounting a show with "gun" in the title when mass shootings are so common. Not that it would matter to everybody, but I could imagine feeling a bit weird sitting down for a show where guns are so prominent on the heels of a major act of gun violence.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 9:48am

NOWaWarning said: "While I agree that the content of the show has next to nothing to do with school shootings, I can see the OP's point. Risk-averse producers might be squeamish aboutmountinga show with "gun" in the title when mass shootings are so common. Not that it would matter to everybody, but I could imaginefeeling a bit weird sitting down fora show where guns are so prominent on the heels of a majoract of gun violence."

Yes, this was the main point I was trying to get across.

You are either playing to an audience who feels squeamish, or you are playing to right wing gun lovers, and there’s not much grey area.

I just don’t trust most of the general public to divorce the sport depicted onstage from the same weapon that is used to kill people regularly. If even one person at a given performance leaves the theatre saying “shootin’ is damn cool, I should get into that,” the show is negatively impacting society. IMHO.

[theblackumbrella]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 10:48am

I love the Berlin brothers. Truly. But where I see this musical existing in its next iteration is an Encores! mounting of "Annie Get Your Gun!" starring Kelly Clarkson. It'd be short commitment and would be very clear what it is.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 10:57am

theblackumbrella said: "I love the Berlin brothers. Truly. But where I see this musical existing in its next iteration is an Encores! mounting of "Annie Get Your Gun!" starring Kelly Clarkson. It'd be short commitment and would be very clear what it is."

FWIW, City Center did it as their gala presentation in 2015 directed by John Rando with Megan Hilty, Andy Karl, Ron Raines, Judy Kaye, and Chuck Cooper. It was enjoyable enough but underscored the weaknesses of the material. I recall some lyrical tweaks to "Colonel Buffalo Bill" ("renegades" were attacking the stagecoach).

[darquegk]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 11:00am

I have all the support in the world for sensible gun control measures, but this argument feels sort of like a tempest in a teapot, or even more like the old joke about the ant making love to the elephant, then asking "was it good for you?"

A small local production of "Annie Get Your Gun" being a catalyst for neutral-to-positive depiction of guns to the youth? In a world of action movies, crime TV shows, massively multiplayer first-person shooters and app-based tag-team battle royale games, "Annie Get Your Gun" isn't going to trigger anyone but an anti-gun activist looking for a mission.

American culture eats, sleeps, breathes and dreams idealized VIOLENT gun use. An exceptionally quaint old-fashioned musical about a historical sharpshooter has about one thousand times less impact on gun culture than, say, the memes about the stoic casual Turkish sharpshooter in the Olympics. If anything, it's the outdated and questionable racial and sexual mores of even the revised version of the show that are keeping it from being a mainstay.

[ChrisTyler1288]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 3:29pm

I think your feelings and intent are solid, but the comparison is a bit of a reach. I absolutely agree that gun violence feels very specific to the US and out of control is an understatement, but I would be GOB SMACKED if you polled every single person who has committed an act of gun violence in this country (and I'm sure that would be thousands of people) and 5 of them had heard of Annie Get Your Gun. I am STAUNCHLY for way stricter gun laws in this country, but never once has a production, viewing or listening to of this show drummed up memories of horrible acts of violence in this country via guns. It's definitely a time capsule show. 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 3:34pm

ErmengardeStopSniveling said: "theblackumbrella said: "I love the Berlin brothers. Truly. But where I see this musical existing in its next iteration is an Encores! mounting of "Annie Get Your Gun!" starring Kelly Clarkson. It'd be short commitment and would be very clear what it is."

FWIW, City Center did it as their gala presentation in 2015 directed by John Rando with Megan Hilty, Andy Karl, Ron Raines, Judy Kaye, and Chuck Cooper. It was enjoyable enough but underscored the weaknesses of the material. I recall some lyrical tweaks to "Colonel Buffalo Bill" ("renegades" were attacking the stagecoach)."

 

Going back even further, LCT did a benefit concert with Patti Lupone and Peter Gallagher, directed by Lonny Price. It was enjoyable enough.  There are clips online.

https://playbill.com/article/lupone-gallagher-annie-get-your-gun-at-ny-lincoln-center-mar-8-com-73777

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 4:06pm

inception said: "Yesterday a mentally unstableguy chopped off someone's hand with a butcher knife a block from the building I work at, and then killed an old man on the next block.

Should Sweeney Todd no longer be performed?

I don't believe in handgun ownership. But I think the bigger issue is lack of support for people with mental health issues."

I can pretty much guarantee that the little tale you just told never happened. Yes, yes, it’s all about mental health issues, blah, blah, blah. You got all the right wing talking points. Take a bow. By the way, the Rethuglicans blocked mental health support in schools not long ago. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 4:32pm

Matt Rogers said: "inception said: "Yesterday a mentally unstableguy chopped off someone's hand with a butcher knife a block from the building I work at, and then killed an old man on the next block.

Should Sweeney Todd no longer be performed?

I don't believe in handgun ownership. But I think the bigger issue is lack of support for people with mental health issues."

I can pretty much guarantee that the little tale you just told never happened. Yes, yes, it’s all about mental health issues, blah, blah, blah. You got all the right wing talking points. Take a bow. By the way, the Rethuglicans blocked mental health support in schools not long ago."

Not sure why you are attacking Inception for choices Republicans made that he/she may not remotely support. 

[amiyagi]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 4:59pm

Matt Rogers said: "inception said: "Yesterday a mentally unstableguy chopped off someone's hand with a butcher knife a block from the building I work at, and then killed an old man on the next block.

Should Sweeney Todd no longer be performed?

I don't believe in handgun ownership. But I think the bigger issue is lack of support for people with mental health issues."

I can pretty much guarantee that the little tale you just told never happened. Yes, yes, it’s all about mental health issues, blah, blah, blah. You got all the right wing talking points. Take a bow. By the way, the Rethuglicans blocked mental health support in schools not long ago."

That actually did happen, in Vancouver, it wasn't just a story.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/murder-aggravated-assault-charges-laid-in-vancouver-stranger-attacks-1.7026999

[Kad]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 7:21pm

Depiction of gun use is the least of the show’s problems. I would honestly be surprised if many people, even those who want much more stringent gun control laws, would find sharpshooting objectionable or something that could lead to more violence. And from what I recall, the show doesn’t really glamorize it, per se. It’s depicted positively in the sense that Oakley is very good at it and it is a major part of who she is, but it’s not depicted as a noble calling for all to pursue. 

And let’s face it- impressionable youth aren’t going to see Annie Get Your Gun. 

[whatever2]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 8:05pm

> The fact that she is a sharpshooter for sport IS what I see to be the problem: it glorifies the sport and continues the troublesome "guns are cool" narrative.

i despise guns (at least in a civilian context), but i think that's a hard sell. there's a world of difference between marksmanship and gun terrorism. our only hope in this country is to find a middle ground, and that middle ground has to allow for regulated, responsible gun ownership. The tragedy in Georgia is yet the latest example of irresponsible gun ownership -- and yes also of our collective failure to address mental health issues -- but not of good marksmanship. again, i despise guns, but i know the reality i live in.

Updated On: 9/6/24 at 08:05 PM

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 8:13pm

Thanks for the thoughtful responses, everyone.

[darquegk]

Posted: 9/6/24 at 10:39pm

I get your instinct here, and I don't think it's naive so much as misaimed. With something like this, you'd almost need to ask the macro question of "should depictions of gun use, or even of guns themselves, be as guarded and limited as depictions of rape or suicide are today?"

I happen to say no, they shouldn't... but that doesn't mean I'm right. And I know many people who are smarter and more experienced than me, like Christopher Walken and Jim Carrey, who would say "yes, they should be."

[BETTY22]

Posted: 9/8/24 at 9:41am

I think if a big star wanted to do it, it would get produced.

Would there be an audience for it today.....I'm not so sure. 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 9/8/24 at 11:34am

BETTY22 said: "I think if a big star wanted to do it, it would get produced.

Would there be an audience for it today.....I'm not so sure."

Surely no audience for it without a star, as with a lot of other titles.

It's one of those situations where I doubt there are many (if any) boffo box office ladies nowadays who are like "I want to do ANNIE GET YOUR GUN above any other musical." Wishing for a star is easier than actually securing one.

[ghostlight2]

Posted: 9/10/24 at 1:24am

"You are either playing to an audience who feels squeamish, or you are playing to right wing gun lovers, and there’s not much grey area."

That is not a remotely true statement - it's your opinion, and a vastly inaccurate generalization. For example, there are plenty of left wing "gun lovers", or as they are more commonly known, gun owners.

When you make statements like this, positing them as fact, then yes, I'd say you are over-reacting. AGYG does not glorify guns. It's a true story (for the most part) of a real woman who took up a gun in order to feed her family, and later came to fame for her skills.