Dear Theater Fans, Please Stop Stealing- Page 2

[IlanaKeller]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 6:35pm

As we have discussed prior in this thread, people (no matter who they are) doing something does not make it right or wrong, or lawful or not. Telling me that the Royal Empress of Oz murdered someone doesn't make murder legal.

Not quite sure why you need to tell people it's OK to take Playbills off the floor. Perhaps upon a closer read, you'll see that was not an action that was questionable, and in fact, encouraged if one desires a few extra copies, rather than swiping an usher's stack.

I agree with you, I certainly can't tell someone what to do or make them do it. The only one who can set your moral compass is yourself. That does not mean I cannot express my opinions or point out logical flaws or debate or encourage actions that don't directly harm others. As anyone does.

[IlanaKeller]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 6:44pm

pupscotch said: "Stagedooring after a show you didn't see, however? I don't think that's "stealing" at all. Again, many young theatre fans love shows like Hamilton and Dear Evan Hansen, but can't afford tickets to see them live, but still want to meet the cast members of a show they love so much. Many people come to matinees of those shows due to cost and availability, and then stagedoor the night show, as many cast members don't stagedoor after matinees. While the rest of your article makes perfect sense, I simply do not understand that part."

Think of it from the point of view of someone who sees the show, walks out afterward and is completely blockaded from getting anywhere near the stage door because of a crowd of people not in attendance who lined up well before the show ended. While not stealing in the true sense of the word, as noted, I do think they are being cheating out of a possible experience (of course nothing is guaranteed). 

The same young theater fans have the option of sending fan mail, reaching out on social media, attending a free event (talkbacks, AOL Build Series, concerts, CD signings, television show appearances) or otherwise interacting with actors, without taking the spot of someone who attended the show.

[AC126748]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 6:56pm

There's a lot of hypocrisy surrounding bootlegs in the community. I've seen one person get on Twitter and openly ask if anyone had a bootleg of a show he did that wasn't recorded...then a few months later, send a flurry of tweets about how disappointed he was that boots of his current show were showing up on Tumblr. And that's just one example--I've seen situations like that a few times. It really seems to be the kind of thing performers are on board with when it serves their purposes, and be scolds about when it doesn't.

Updated On: 5/2/17 at 06:56 PM

[Marianne2]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 7:53pm

Is it stealing if you take something out of the public library and then copy it for your own use? If they didn't want people to have access to the material,  they shouldn't get put in a place where people can fins it. I realize this mostly just applies to cast recordings,  legal films, and book materials. 

 

[IlanaKeller]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 8:09pm

Marianne2 said: "Is it stealing if you take something out of the public library and then copy it for your own use?"

Yes.

"If they didn't want people to have access to the material,  they shouldn't get put in a place where people can fins it. I realize this mostly just applies to cast recordings,  legal films, and book materials."

 

Do you leave your car in your driveway? If so, you shouldn't put in a place where people can find it so it doesn't get stolen, according to this logic?

 

[pupscotch]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 8:31pm

IlanaKeller said: "Think of it from the point of view of someone who sees the show, walks out afterward and is completely blockaded from getting anywhere near the stage door because of a crowd of people not in attendance who lined up well before the show ended. While not stealing in the true sense of the word, as noted, I do think they are being cheating out of a possible experience (of course nothing is guaranteed). 

The same young theater fans have the option of sending fan mail, reaching out on social media, attending a free event (talkbacks, AOL Build Series, concerts, CD signings, television show appearances) or otherwise interacting with actors, without taking the spot of someone who attended the show.

 

"

Again, a lot of these young theatre fans are only able to make one trip to NYC to see shows, and might not have the money or resources to shell out money to see the show they love so much. AOL Builds, CD signings, and TV show appearances are wonderful, but they don't occur that often, and stagedooring can be the only place these fans can meet their idols. There are obviously times that the stage doors get extremely crowded, but again, it can be the only way you have a real chance to interact with people you admire. Lots of Broadway actors don't reply to fans on social media, and fan mail can take a while to arrive, and a response is obviously never guaranteed. While it also is not guaranteed for actors to come out and stagedoor, many do, and the experience of meeting the people who have inspired you in person can have such a great impact on young future artists and theatre fans, who may one day live in NYC and have the resources to see these shows.

[OlBlueEyes]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 9:09pm

I couldn't believe all the nastiness here for an article that seems to promote protecting an artists work and encourages ethical behavior.  Agree with the article or not, why cant people just be civil?  Why the need to attack or mock people on this social media?

You new in town, kid?

People don't understand why they can't buy recordings of their cherished live shows, beginning maybe a year after the show and its touring company have shut down. It seems like a lose, lose situation. Fans are willing to put up big bucks for these shows and those involved with creating and performing the show will receive the money. Given no alternative, they settle for bootlegs.

Whenever those who are supposed to know are asked why bootlegs are illegal, or why DVDs do not appear, first we are told that it is illegal. Thanks for that. Now let's go to the reason that it is illegal. Here the answers grow quickly to vague assertions about  the difficulty in getting the copyright owners, the unions, the musician's union, and on and on. I get the feeling that some 1926 federal court ruling in a case brought by one of the unions made certain copies illegal under certain circumstances and no one has bothered to challenge it over the last eighty years.

To get down to one specific example that you might answer in a detailed manner, take the 2010 live broadcast of South Pacific as part of the Live From Lincoln Center series. Since the original production was not recorded and the film was notable mostly for Mitzi Gaynor, to many of us this 2008 South Pacific, of which Ben Brantley wrote

 I know we're not supposed to expect perfection in this imperfect world, but I'm darned if I can find one serious flaw in this production.

should be the official finest production of a top ten musical classic. It should be public. Never mind the fact that Lincoln Center Theater and Live From Lincoln Center are supported by private donations by members of the public and by public taxes. Never mind the fact that viewers could have and did record their own version on DVR. But, as you say, the show should be represented by the best possible recording, as in a HD DVD, not a home-baked DVR.

So why is it that PBS stations cannot even replay the original live broadcast? Why no DVD? Can you give a sensible answer to these questions, not that it's illegal or there would be union problems?

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 9:15pm

Again, regardless of whether you think bootleg is right or wrong, it breaches the copyrights of the set, score etc. of the show you record and is therefore illegal. You might have not gotten into trouble for doing so, yet, but bootlegging cannot be justified legally no matter how you want to spin it.

[gypsy101]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 9:24pm

what the hell is going on in this thread

[Marianne2]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 9:51pm

IlanaKeller said: "Marianne2 said: "Is it stealing if you take something out of the public library and then copy it for your own use?"

Yes.

"If they didn't want people to have access to the material,  they shouldn't get put in a place where people can fins it. I realize this mostly just applies to cast recordings,  legal films, and book materials."

 

Do you leave your car in your driveway? If so, you shouldn't put in a place where people can find it so it doesn't get stolen, according to this logic?

 

 

"

Your driveway is private property though. Like I don't cross onto someone's driveway because I know it isn't public land I can do whatever I want on. But, everyone and anyone can visit a library and probably get a card to check out materials. 

 

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 10:16pm

gypsy101 said: "what the hell is going on in this thread

I have no idea. We're indulging bloggers now?

 

[BroadwayConcierge]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 10:18pm

Bootleg sympathizers need to stop.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 5/2/17 at 11:09pm

gypsy101 said: "what the hell is going on in this thread"

Clicks. The clicks are happening.

[jmuep]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 12:30am

Whenever those who are supposed to know are asked why bootlegs are illegal, or why DVDs do not appear, first we are told that it is illegal. Thanks for that. Now let's go to the reason that it is illegal. Here the answers grow quickly to vague assertions about  the difficulty in getting the copyright owners, the unions, the musician's union, and on and on. I get the feeling that some 1926 federal court ruling in a case brought by one of the unions made certain copies illegal under certain circumstances and no one has bothered to challenge it over the last eighty years.

To get down to one specific example that you might answer in a detailed manner, take the 2010 live broadcast of South Pacific as part of the Live From Lincoln Center series. Since the original production was not recorded and the film was notable mostly for Mitzi Gaynor, to many of us this 2008 South Pacific, of which Ben Brantley wrote

 I know we're not supposed to expect perfection in this imperfect world, but I'm darned if I can find one serious flaw in this production.

should be the official finest production of a top ten musical classic. It should be public. Never mind the fact that Lincoln Center Theater and Live From Lincoln Center are supported by private donations by members of the public and by public taxes. Never mind the fact that viewers could have and did record their own version on DVR. But, as you say, the show should be represented by the best possible recording, as in a HD DVD, not a home-baked DVR.

So why is it that PBS stations cannot even replay the original live broadcast? Why no DVD? Can you give a sensible answer to these questions, not that it's illegal or there would be union problems?

 

"

The reason PBS stations can't replay this is contracts.  Those creatives, cast and presumably crew who were involved were paid something for their participation.  Live From Lincoln Center or PBS presumably made a deal for one airing and one airing only.  Because the production of South Pacific was broadcast, that means it falls under the SAG/AFTRA, DGA and WGA contracts, which means that if it were to be reaired, then all those individuals who fall under one of those contracts would be owed some amount of residuals.  That's where this comes down to stealing.  It's copyright law.  If you violate it, you are taking money out of someone's pocket.  

Take She Loves Me for instance.  If someone downloaded the official broadcast of that, then Benanti, Levi et al would receive (a little) bit of money for that.  However, if somebody made their own bootleg of the show and watched that instead of the official capture, then they're keeping money from going to the people who could and should be getting paid for their participation.  

It's no different than people who download the pirated episodes of the upcoming season of Orange is the New Black and watch them.  By not waiting and watching them through Netflix, you are depriving Netflix of recognizing you as a viewer of said content.  Thus, depending on how the residual contracts are written, you not being recognized means less money into the pockets of those involved who get residuals based on the number of hits or downloads.  

The assertion that copyright law hasn't changed since the 1920s is just inaccurate.  It's constantly being updated and rewritten to better protect creatives as new technology becomes available.  That's what the whole Napster copyright battle was about 15 years ago.  The bigger problem is that attitudes toward copyright have changed.  Now that things are infinitely more accessible in terms of becoming aware of them and the technology to share them, somehow a plethora of attitudes have come to believe that because people from all over the world can be interested in "experiences" -- ie -- shows, movies, performances -- then they have the right to consume them.  And unfortunately the law (nor ethics) support that philosophy.  

That's why the author called out bootlegs as stealing.  Because the law (and FBI) consider it intellectual property theft.   

[trpguyy]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 12:59am

"That's why the author called out bootlegs as stealing.  Because the law (and FBI) consider it intellectual property theft."

 

I apologize for contributing to this dumpster fire of a thread, but could you please point to an example of law enforcement becoming involved in a musical theatre bootleg situation?

[IlanaKeller]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 11:08am

Marianne2 said: "IlanaKeller said: "Marianne2 said: "Is it stealing if you take something out of the public library and then copy it for your own use?"

Yes.

"If they didn't want people to have access to the material,  they shouldn't get put in a place where people can fins it. I realize this mostly just applies to cast recordings,  legal films, and book materials."



Do you leave your car in your driveway? If so, you shouldn't put in a place where people can find it so it doesn't get stolen, according to this logic?"

Your driveway is private property though. Like I don't cross onto someone's driveway because I know it isn't public land I can do whatever I want on. But, everyone and anyone can visit a library and probably get a card to check out materials."


So, if the car were parked on public property it would be OK to would steal it?

The fact that CDs can be taken out of a library does not make it OK to steal music. Period.

Updated On: 5/3/17 at 11:08 AM

[BobbyD3]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 11:16am

A-FREAKIN'-MEN!

 Ilana Keller nailed this one. 

It amazes me that people would find it abhorrent to walk out of Target with a DVD or Book but find stealing video/audio/printed materials online to be okay.  

Taking money out of people's pockets is never okay....

I, like everyone, wish they would have access to Broadway recordings and easier access to single song sheet music downloads - however, it isn't my call.  Respect the artists.  Respect the art.  

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 1:44pm

I agree with you, I certainly can't tell someone what to do or make them do it.

You can tell them what to do.  You do exactly that in your blog post.  You literally tell people what to do.  And some of it is just about how you feel on the subject, not regarding actual law, which nobody should be obligated to follow or even really acknowledge.

Stagedooring after a show you didn't see, however? I don't think that's "stealing" at all.

It's not.  Not even a little.  Not even close.  It's just something the blogger is telling us to do based on her superior morality.  She offers hypothetical situations for emotional sympathy as evidence and justification for her stance and attempts to guilt us into doing something that is now and has always been perfectly acceptable (and legal) to do.

Copyright laws are laws, regardless of what people want and regardless of what people do, so there are no morality bonus points for regurgitating facts.  Why not be Mrs. Garrett to everyone and lecture us all on drinking and drugs and sex as well?  Except try to stick to the facts instead of telling people to do what you want because you believe your opinion to be more valid.  You already shilled your nonsense for your APP click quota or to feed your ego or whatever it is that you feel deserves attention.  Just go away.  Or at least give me a compelling reason why I should do what you say and you shouldn't do the same for me?

[kaykordeath]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 2:00pm

Bootlegs-Agreed. Illegal, and copyright infringement. Don't do it.

 

Playbills-Have you ever seen how many Playbills the typical theater recycles at the end of the month? There's no harm here. 

 

Scripts/Sheet Music AND Music-Again, a copyright issue more than anything. And really, this is an "issue" for all media in general, and in NO WAY specific to the theater. the more available good quality material becomes available through legitimate means, the less "sharing" becomes a problem (and I'll throw in video recording to combat bootlegs as well). That being said, I'd love for some kind of database to be made available for student's and/or early performers to have access to music for auditions and training purposes.

 

Stagedooring-This I find the most laughable. Is it "stealing" from a ticketholder when a performer doesn't exit through the stage door? Of course not, because they're entitled to their time. If they elect to meet their fans, they do so fully knowing that they are doing so with access by the general public. The performer chooses to do pictures or not, to sign or not, etc. Granted, this doesn't give the fans free reign from common courtesy, but the whole concept of "being cheated from a possible" experience is far from "stealing."

 

[BakerWilliams]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 2:24pm

Nobody, and I mean nobody, values bootlegs more than industry professionals. 

[BrodyFosse123]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 2:27pm

If it weren't for people bootlegging shows, many shows would forever go unarchived or preserved.  Sadly, countless shows are not filmed for the archives and many, when they are, are filmed with replacement casts and not the original Broadway cast.  These bootlegs featuring the original Broadway casts are the ONLY documentation of a full performance.  

Example: the ONLY existing footage of a complete performance of the original 1981 Broadway cast of DREAMGIRLS is from a bootleg video someone made.  The filmed archived video is from a 1985 cast - not the original Broadway cast.  This bootleg video is considered in high regards by the creators, casts and historians of DREAMGIRLS. 

Same thing goes with the now-legendary bootleg video of Act 1 of the original 1988 Broadway production of CARRIE. If it weren't for ensemble member Scott Wise taking it upon himself to strap a camcorder in the balcony section, there would be NO existing footage of a performance of the original Broadway production of CARRIE.  Sadly his battery ran out so he wasn't able to film Act 2 and it was never filmed for the archives.  

 

[babykitty_00]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 3:26pm

I completely get what you're saying about the stage-door thing....it is so annoying to get there and see tons of people that have clearly been there so long, that there is no way they were inside the performance. This happened to us when we saw Evita with Ricky Martin. All his crazed fans were sucking up the whole space and we couldn't get near. It actually sucked. It was also a big problem at Hamilton when the original cast was still in it.

Now, as for bootlegs. I have purchased them in the past and will continue to do so, only because I refuse to let seeing Broadway shows become an elitist activity only for rich people. Not all of us theater lovers can afford to come to NYC and see shows as often as we would like. So what are we supposed to do? Never see anything? Sorry. Not happening.

Just my 2 cents.

[Kad]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 3:30pm

I support bootlegs from an archival standpoint and even from the argument that it widens the audience, but I really take issue with people making money off of them. That  money isn't going into the production, and the people involved did not sign off on their work being used in such a way.

[IlanaKeller]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 5:13pm

babykitty_00 said: "Not all of us theater lovers can afford to come to NYC and see shows as often as we would like. So what are we supposed to do? Never see anything? Sorry. Not happening."

Support livestreaming efforts, so they continue to grow.

Support filmed shows shown in movie theaters, again, allowing efforts to grow.

Watch vlogs, social media takeovers, promotional materials and videos released by the show, talk show appearances, late night appearances, Tony appearances, Macy's parade appearances, etc. 

Buy cast recordings.

Support touring productions -- heck, support your local theaters and help them grow.

While access is definitely an issue, it is one I think it being addressed, and I think we need to give the artists and teams behind that the time and space they need to do it right. Stealing from them because we want what we want when we want it isn't the answer.

I also thinks shows are reaching out through social media especially, and making material and performances and sneak peeks and general access to their shows and performers greater than it ever was before. 25 years ago, a kid in Oklahoma would have never seen Ben Platt perform anything, other than maybe the Tonys. Now, they have a choice of multiple full performance numbers from more than handful of official television performances, can shoot him a message on Twitter, follow his show and co-stars on Instagram and Snapchat, etc, etc, etc. 

Updated On: 5/3/17 at 05:13 PM

[elephantseye]

Posted: 5/3/17 at 6:16pm

Are you seriously making the claim that being able to follow Ben Platt on Twitter is comparable to watching him perform DEH