Sexism defeats Taymor- Page 3

[dramamama611]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 11:33am

I think that what people are gleeful about is that the producers are FINALLY doing something to make this show work. NO show should have 100 previews....and STILL not be ready to open. This IS for the betterment of the show, therefore to the betterment of the cast.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 11:49am

This needs a tell all book written about it. Something tells me there will be & it will be a juicy read.

[crewdude]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 8:39pm

Kdogg - Do not make the assumption that people are taking glee at the notion that the show is having problems. Some of us actually want the show to be good. Some of us are also intelligent enough and theatrically savvy enough after all our years in this biz to know what the problem is with the show. The problem is the director. It IS that simple. It is THAT plain. A GOOD director can shape the show and solve the rest of the problems. The fact that her ego drove her to write the book - gee, based on her vast book writing experience? What experience? The fact that she would not respond to the producers and their demands for changes are evidence that she needed to be let go.

Before you try to defend Taymor or what she did with an incredible property like Spiderman or $65 mill- Did you actually see the show? or are you just another internet chatter that feels compelled to discuss shows you haven't actually seen?

I want Spiderman to succeed. I want it to succeed for the sake of all the people working on it. It want it to succeed for the sake of the reputation of Broadway. I want it to succeed because I love Spiderman. BUT I know that in order for that to happen Julie Taymor needed to be replaced. Thus, I AM happy that she was replaced. I think the show has a chance now to succeed.

As for your idea that "the anatomically picturesque manner in which a few people have chosen to emphasize the irrelevance of Julie Taymor's sex is bizarre and undermines their claims." ACTUALLY the claim that was made that launched this thread was that the treatment of Julie Taymor was sexist. A notion that post after post has pointed out how ridiculous that claim is. I, meaning me, made the statement that "No one cares that Julie Taymor has a vagina." Granted Dramamamma picked up on it and used. (Congrats to her! Because she gets it.)

What do I mean by "she gets it"? Well, let me introduce you to an element of comedy we call irony and it's friend sarcasm. See, the basis of claiming "sexism" means someone is noticing what sex the person is. Post after post has pointed out how ridiculous this claim is. Ridiculous comment. Are you with me so far? In this case, Julie is a woman. A woman has a vagina. To claim that this is about Julie's sex means that someone has noticed she is a woman...a woman has a vagina. No one cares that she's a woman. No one cares that she has a vagina. See how stupid that sounds? It makes fun of the claim that this is about "sexism" by making light of the comment with an equally stupid ridiculous statement that reduces the original statement to it's literal meaning. It doesn't make fun of Julie Taymor's vagina. Got it?

Hmm, they usually say a joke isn't funny if you have to explain it...but I'm still laughing but not at Julie Taymor's vagina.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 9:02pm

Sorry, got whyohwhyohwhyohwhyohetc... mixed up with MyOhMy. Haha!

[kdogg36]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 9:03pm

crewdude,

You'll note from the first paragraph of my previous post that I agree that (1) Taymor did a very poor job with Spider-Man, and that (2) it had nothing to do with sexism. Based on parts of your response, I'm not sure you picked up on those two points, and I apologize if my writing was not clear on the matter.

I saw the show on December 5 and February 9. It was really awful on December 5, but I agreed to go with my friend to see it again (for cheap) in February. There was some noticeable improvement, especially in Act II, which made a lot more sense - but there was not nearly enough improvement considering how long they've been working on it, and it seemed clear that Julie Taymor's intransigence was a big part of the problem. It remains the weakest show I've seen on Broadway since "The Wedding Singer" (I guess I've seen about half the musicals in that time period). But I didn't hate it, at least on Feb. 9.

I don't feel terribly inclined to chatter on message boards. I've been a member here for quite a while and I've only made a handful of posts.

I absolutely do *not* accuse everyone who's trashing Spider-Man - or Julie Taymor - of taking glee in the matter. But a few have, and my comment was directed solely at them. I'm not inclined to spend time looking things up, but there's one young man who expressed his desire to see the show "fall flat on its ass," and someone else posted something to the effect of "good riddance, and I hope you never work in this town again."

I have no problem understanding what people mean whey they write that Julie's vagina is not a factor, and what humorous effect they're going for. It just seemed a little weird and jarring to see that turn of phrase used several times on the last page of this thread.
Updated On: 3/12/11 at 09:03 PM

[crewdude]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 10:06pm

Kdogg, my apologies. You're right, i didn't notice the finer points that you have seen the show. I'm with you. I also rarely post, but when I do I try to make sure I explain myself thoroughly - most (at least those under 30's that only like to read short one liners as if that actually means something) would say too thoroughly. I also try to inject some humor to lighten the mood...well, it's humorous to me anyway.

You should have found it "weird and jarring" to read that no one cares about Julie Taymor's vagina. It was meant to be as "weird and jarring" as reading "Sexism defeats Taymor". Apparently it worked.

[whyohwhyoh]

Posted: 3/12/11 at 11:47pm

No one has addressed my central point at all!! Taymor is the ONLY woman on the project and she is being dumped! Why aren't Bono and the Edge being dumped??Their score is by FAR the worst aspect of the show. The script is bizarre but it has it's kooky charm. The score however, is something you might hear at a college jam session- by untalented musicians. It is mind-boggling that people talk about Taymor's intransigence and he ego when it's BONO and THE EDGE's insane ego that begot this fiasco!!! They have NO BUSINESS being involved in Broadway as they clearly have NO TALENT in writing character or plot driving songs. They can only write songs that some 14 year-old angsty angry teenage boy might write! It is beyond my comprehension that people do not see this blatant double standard. If a man - ie Fosse, Bennett, Tune, Champion, Nunn was the driving force, people would talk about his strength, his conviction. With Taymor, it's her arrogance, her stubbornness. I'm a gay man as I assume many of you others are and it's shocking that you would be supporting the patriarchy in this. YES, the show has/had problems but the MAIN problem is the SCORE. Stop being lemmings. Call for the ouster of Bono and the Edge and their simplistic garage band nonsense. They are the emperor's new clothes- you all are sheep hoping to be thought cool after all these years for being supportive to this piece of junk score.

[Kad]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 12:30am

Um, Eiko Ishioka, the costume designer, is a woman. And she's being retained.
Two of the named producers (Terry Allen Kramer and Patricia Lambrecht) are women.

Even YOU admit the book is "bizarre"- the highest praise you can muster is that is has "kooky charm"- hardly a laudatory phrase, nothing you can put on a billboard.

Your barely coherent rantings about the qualities of Bono's music are beside the point- especially as he had a great amount of acclaim. And most of the ire directed at the show are directed not at the score or visuals, but at the incoherency of the STORY. The presence of a blatant and all-powerful author avatar that muddles the very strong and well-established pre-existing mythos. The fact the second act makes no sense.

I argue Taymor has NO TALENT in writing in character or plot and NO TALENT in being a director who is able to tie together all aspects of a production unless she is working under constraint. When she is given freedom to do as she wishes, the coherency of the work suffers and becomes a string of striking images.
This is not because she is a woman.

Your being gay and our being gay has nothing to do with 'supporting the patriarchy'. The gender of all involved is immaterial.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 1:37am

What does being gay have to do with anything? Oh, riiiight: just as much as Taymor being a woman has to do with her being fired. NOTHING.

Updated On: 3/13/11 at 01:37 AM

[bwayphreak234]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 1:42am

Whyohwhy - are you serious? Taymor was fired because she would not make changes to a production that has some serious problems. It has NOTHING to do with her being a woman. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read on the boards.

[kdogg36]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 8:54am

crewdude - no problem!

[D2]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 9:40am

The score is not the least of the show's problems of course; a lot of it is not very good, and it is definitely not a traditional musical theater score. But there is some gold mixed in the dross, and after some initial intransigence on Bono's part, apparently he is now willing to go back and re-write, add, and do further work on it - something the golden girl was obstinately refusing to do.

Oh, I'm sorry - "the golden girl." A sexist comment that no doubt betrays my not so latent misogyny. Apologies to all.

Updated On: 3/13/11 at 09:40 AM

[billyboyA]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 9:54am

I'm sorry, but, my dear, the fault ALSO lies in the person who decided that a storyline about a mythical creature needing to have her minions steal 52 pairs of shoes so she could travel from the Astral Plane to earth on those shoes bears the brunt of blame as well. (Although you're right about the music, of course... but don't forget the idiocy and sophomoric dialogue we were subjected to when watching this thing...)

[Marianne2]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 10:17am

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but isn't there at least a plot to the story worked out before one goes and starts writing music for it?

[billyboyA]

Posted: 3/13/11 at 10:32am

Why do people LOVE to jump on the bandwagon of discrimination? Julie's being dumped, not because she's a WOMAN, but because the show is a freaking MESS and she's created a script that is beyond horrible, and months of re-working hasn't improved it. Not because she's a woman. If there was prejudice about her being a woman, they wouldn't have freaking HIRED her in the first place to DO a superhero musical!

And why haven't Bono and The Edge been dumped? Not because they're men! It's because the producers know that the John and Jane Tourist from Topeka Kansas who know nothing about theater or wouldn't know Sondheim from Herman, might be more likely to plunk down their ignorant money on a name they recognize. "Oh, that music is by U2, we should see this one"

Plain and simple.

I mean, I'm all for calling a spade a spade when it's deserved - and I hate discrimination of all kinds. But come on... anyone who sat through Spider-man (who was above the age of 17) experienced what a weak and unfocused script it was, and most thinking individuals realized that the the flying didn't make up for what the book lacked.

If the book had been GREAT, the music could have been forgiven a lot more easily.

But this has nothing to do with gender. When you lay a stinker, doesn't matter what kind of orifice it came out of. Know what I mean?

And if you want to get upset about discrimination, why don't you start ranting about the casting calls for the new Rent, which is clearly calling for the same races that the original actors were. Which MEANS that no African Americans can be considered for Mark, Roger or Maureen... no Asians or White guys can be considered for Collins or Benny... no white or Asians can be considered for Joanne... To me, that's discrimination, because, as I see it, only Mimi and Angel NEED to be of a certain ethnic type.

[whyohwhyoh]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 12:31am

I surrender. I give up. This board is made up of people who were ridiculed for loving Streisand and knowing all the words for Flower Drum Song (I was) and now want to show they are down with the cool kids and profess some kind of hip adherence to the garbage that Bono and The Edge have produced. Tuneless, incoherent garbage that offers nothing to the story but noise. Blame Taymor. Go right ahead. Let the cool guys get off scot free and fly back to their villas in France to laugh at the dumb tourists that pay to see crap. The jokes on all of us. I hope Taymor screws the producers royally!!!

[D2]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 8:03am

She already did.

[theminutepast]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 9:55am

whyohwhy, I agree with most of what you wrote. While Taymour is clearly not a good director, most people have gone far beyond that point in their criticisms of her. She has been painted as a power-hungry b*tch, which is a sexist characterization of her. There aren't many female directors, and it's just not productive to characterize one of the few female directors in that way.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 10:04am

If someone is, in fact, a power hungry bitch, than it's not sexist to call them that.

[Kad]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 10:34am

Sorry, whyohwhyoh, there ain't an underdog in this situation. Julie Taymor is not some victim. She is a multimillionaire who made a multimillion dollar blunder, and she is equally to blame as the producers for continuing to mismanage the situation and Bono for not really giving a **** about what's going on. She has had years to make the show work- and put it up without even finishing the ending. She has gone overbudget time and time again. Her book is sloppy and incoherent in the second act. Her artistic motto is basically "whatever it costs, it's going to be done this way"- something she has even admitted.
I resent your attempt at some sort of gay guilt trip on us.
The "if this were a man, it'd be different" argument is invalid- because there really isn't a comparable situation. I think any one who messed up as colossally as Taymor would be facing the same amount of ire.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 10:41am

I was teased and abused when I was younger. I didn't know all the words to FLOWER DRUM SONG and when I was around 7 years old, my Dad used to beat me for it. He would drink when he got home from work (we found out later he had lost his job a year before and just been spending it at the bar) and he would sit back and smack me and tell me to put on my Geisha outfit and sing the score. I tried telling him it was a different culture but try telling that to a 250 pound man with a belt in his hand. I would try to remember the words to the songs and even though the tears were streaming down my face, ruining the makeup he made me put on I could never get it right. I would be forced into the little room under the stairs for days with no food or water with the cast recording playing over and over again until I knew it by heart.

Then one day a letter from Hogwarts came for me...

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 10:50am

Let me get this straight: The only reason Taymor was fired is because she's a woman. That's the only possible reason?

And the only reason people on this board don't agree with the assertion that it was sexism is because they want to appear cool.

Is that it?

Is it possible--just possible--that Taymor was let go because her work on this show was bad and that she was refusing to listen to any of her collaborators?

And is it possible--just possible--that the respondents to this thread are describing the situation exactly as they see it?

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 10:54am

Reginald, your casual and callous use of the words "she" and "her" prove the point that you are a sexist. And probably a racist.

[newintown]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 2:08pm

theminutepast writes, "There aren't many female directors..."

Now wait while I catch my breath.

You mean like
Susan Stroman
Marcia Milgrom Dodge
Kathleen Marshall
Francesca Zemballo
Susan Schulman
Evan Yianoulis
Lisa Peterson
Ann Reinking
Rebecca Taylor
Twyla Tharpe
Graciela Danielle
Jessica Baumann
Pat Birch
Baayork Lee
Erica Schmidt
Eva Le Gallienne
Lynne Meadow
Joanne Akalaitis
Anne Bogart
Mary Zimmermann

And on, and on, and on...

Yes, it's a job that's closed to women.

[crewdude]

Posted: 3/14/11 at 2:11pm

Three pages into the discussion, he now backpedals and says that his point was that Taymor was the "only woman" on the project. When told the truth of her NOT being the only woman - he "gives up".

When told time and time again that the fault for each element of a production lies with the director - he keeps asking why not get rid of Bono and Edge. When he is told that Bono and Edge are responding to the producers call for changes - he claims everyone is "lemmings" and "sheep hoping to be thought cool" . You would think that for a man that has been made fun of for liking Streisand or knowing the words to Flower Drum Song - he would know there is no hope to be "cool" if you like Broadway Musicals. He ignores post after post admits that there are definite problems with the score. Problems that a director should have told her music team to work on.

I went on record even before the night of the first preview that I am not a fan of U2. I gave them a fair chance. Still not a fan. Do I think they are out of their league? No. Do I think they need guidance to make a good (not even great) score?Yes. Do I think they are trying to do exactly that? Maybe. But if they had been asked by the director to rework the score for a few scenes and they did not do it or if the producers had asked them to work with someone that help on music and sound issues and they refused to meet with the people - then I might say they should go as well. But that's not the case.

Fosse, Bennett, Tune, Champion and Nunn - were all smart enough to work with their producers and not against. They also were smart enough to open a show in less than 106 previews. They also were smart enough to know that now $70 mill is not an amount of money you blow through without their being repercussions. They were also smart enough to know that if you actually were able to read review after review of your show before opening night and you had more than a month to fix those problems that EVERY review points out - you do it!

But I have the most trouble trying to understand his philosophy that because a man has an attraction to penis - he's supposed to be outraged that an insubordinate employee that repeatedly went over budget spending $70 million? What's Julie Taymor's vagina got to do , got to do, got to do with it?