Surely there should be a HAL PRINCE THEATRE - Page 2

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/26/21 at 5:04pm

There is a curious word being used in this thread: "we." Who is this "we" who gets to tell property owners what to call their property? Is this the same "we" that is "let[ting] them put their name on it"?

It's worth noting that Broadway theatres have most often been named after their owners. David Belasco does not have a theatre named after him because of his contributions (which are many) to the art form. Ditto Mssrs Golden Cort Nederlander Shubert Minskoff etc etc

This is how things work in our world. If you buy yourself a dog and name him Spot, "we" do not get to come along and tell you have to call him Fido.

[nealb1]

Posted: 3/26/21 at 6:48pm

HogansHero, perfectly said!

Just like saying, "They need to change the name of the theatre."  

They who?  Who are these people that apparently have the power to wave their magic wand and change a name of a building?  

[BroadwayNYC2]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 12:55am

And I don’t get why naming a theatre after someone has become a knee jerk reaction?

[joevitus]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 2:24pm

No idea if there is any knee-jerk reaction, but Prince's contributions to the American theater were huge, and naming a theater in his honor makes perfect sense.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 6:55pm

JBroadway said: "I don't think there's any problem with naming a theatre after Hal Prince - it's hard to argue with his immense legacy (and as others have pointed out, "The Prince" has a nice, classyring to it).

As far as optics, I think the problem isn't with the act of naming a theatre after Prince - the problem (in this scenario) is a question of continuing a a tradition of imbalance: naming another theatre after a white man, without making an effort to consider more racially diverse candidates in addition to him. If, for example, we received a Prince theatre and a Hansberry theatre around the same time, I doubt there would be any significant outcry. That's just an example though - it's not like it has to be a strict 1-to-1 quota, it's just about making an effort to consider who might have been left out of the conversation, and acting accordingly.

Part of the problem, too, is that the history of theatre on Broadway has been overwhelmingly white. And a theatre isn't likely to be named after someone who has only been in the industry for 20-30 years. It feels like it has to be a big, lifetime achievement legacy recognition. And the problem is that there are comparatively few POC of Prince's generation who had the footholds to build a legacy on par with his. Many of our most iconic Black theatre artists are either (a) more recent/currently working - and therefornot ready for such a lifetime achievement recognition, (b) more known for their avant-garde Off-Broadway work, not so much for working on Broadway, or (c) were mostly known for 1 big play/musical, and not much else. And all of that is a testament to the way in which Broadway has been a poor nurturing groundforBlack talent going back so many decades.

So ultimately, I think we do have a few good candidates of color to receive a theatre named after them - and I think they should get that honor. But in the grand scheme of things,it's probably not the most productive use of time and energy. It seems like it's better to focus on fostering meaningful change at the base level: nurturing a more equitable future and present - allowing space for more producers of color, more writers and directors of color, and possibly even more theatre owners of color (this one seems the most logistically unlikely in this current moment - but hey, we know the Nederlanders have been selling some of their houses this week, so fingers crossed lol!). Re-naming theatres is not an insignificant gesture, but at the end of the day, it's an empty one unless it's accompanied by actual change in the industry."

I generally agree with your intention; however, Lorraine Hansbury wrote one play for the ages (and it is flawed -- I will never buy the sudden transition of Walter Lee); compare that to Prince's contribution.  I would like the idea of naming a theatre after a woman at the same time, but -- and I know that I will be accused as being racist -- but who is there of color RIGHT NOW who has made anything approaching the kind of contribution to the THEATRE that Prince has made, other than August Wilson and JAMES EARL JONES. 

The problem as always is that a lot of people should be considered.  In addition to Prince, I can't help thinking that at least Tennessee Williams has to be considered, and Jones would be a great addition.  Can't think of anyone else who is appropriate TODAY.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 6:58pm

goodlead said: "I wonder if we need two Broadway houses named after theater critics and one named after a theater cartoonist. Atkinson and especially Kerr were excellent critics, but surely those who create theater are more worthy. And while we're at it, let's find better names for theaters now named after Shubert executives."

I could not agree with you more.  Create a Hirschfeld room in a newer theatre and fill it with great theatre caricatures.  Brooks Atkinson and Walter Kerr have theatres and not Tennessee Williams????

To this day, I can not remember which is the Jacobs and which is the Schoenfeld.  I still refer to them as the Plymouth and Royale.

Updated On: 3/27/21 at 06:58 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 11:12pm

Jarethan said: "JBroadway said: "I don't think there's any problem with naming a theatre after Hal Prince - it's hard to argue with his immense legacy (and as others have pointed out, "The Prince" has a nice, classyring to it).

As far as optics, I think the problem isn't with the act of naming a theatre after Prince - the problem (in this scenario) is a question of continuing a a tradition of imbalance: naming another theatre after a white man, without making an effort to consider more racially diverse candidates in addition to him. If, for example, we received a Prince theatre and a Hansberry theatre around the same time, I doubt there would be any significant outcry. That's just an example though - it's not like it has to be a strict 1-to-1 quota, it's just about making an effort to consider who might have been left out of the conversation, and acting accordingly.

Part of the problem, too, is that the history of theatre on Broadway has been overwhelmingly white. And a theatre isn't likely to be named after someone who has only been in the industry for 20-30 years. It feels like it has to be a big, lifetime achievement legacy recognition. And the problem is that there are comparatively few POC of Prince's generation who had the footholds to build a legacy on par with his. Many of our most iconic Black theatre artists are either (a) more recent/currently working - and therefornot ready for such a lifetime achievement recognition, (b) more known for their avant-garde Off-Broadway work, not so much for working on Broadway, or (c) were mostly known for 1 big play/musical, and not much else. And all of that is a testament to the way in which Broadway has been a poor nurturing groundforBlack talent going back so many decades.

So ultimately, I think we do have a few good candidates of color to receive a theatre named after them - and I think they should get that honor. But in the grand scheme of things,it's probably not the most productive use of time and energy. It seems like it's better to focus on fostering meaningful change at the base level: nurturing a more equitable future and present - allowing space for more producers of color, more writers and directors of color, and possibly even more theatre owners of color (this one seems the most logistically unlikely in this current moment - but hey, we know the Nederlanders have been selling some of their houses this week, so fingers crossed lol!). Re-naming theatres is not an insignificant gesture, but at the end of the day, it's an empty one unless it's accompanied by actual change in the industry."

I generally agree with your intention; however, Lorraine Hansbury wrote one play for the ages (and it is flawed -- I will never buy the sudden transition of Walter Lee); compare that to Prince's contribution. I would like the idea of naming a theatre after a woman at the same time, but -- and I know that I will be accused as being racist -- but who is there of color RIGHT NOW who has made anything approaching the kind of contribution to the THEATRE that Prince has made, other than August Wilson and JAMES EARL JONES.

The problem as always is that a lot of people should be considered. In addition to Prince, I can't help thinking that at least Tennessee Williams has to be considered, and Jones would be a great addition. Can't think of anyone else who is appropriate TODAY."

 

[Niles Silvers]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 11:15pm

Isn't there a George Abbott Theater?  

[joevitus]

Posted: 3/27/21 at 11:20pm

Jarethan said: "JBroadway said: "I don't think there's any problem with naming a theatre after Hal Prince - it's hard to argue with his immense legacy (and as others have pointed out, "The Prince" has a nice, classyring to it).

As far as optics, I think the problem isn't with the act of naming a theatre after Prince - the problem (in this scenario) is a question of continuing a a tradition of imbalance: naming another theatre after a white man, without making an effort to consider more racially diverse candidates in addition to him. If, for example, we received a Prince theatre and a Hansberry theatre around the same time, I doubt there would be any significant outcry. That's just an example though - it's not like it has to be a strict 1-to-1 quota, it's just about making an effort to consider who might have been left out of the conversation, and acting accordingly.

Part of the problem, too, is that the history of theatre on Broadway has been overwhelmingly white. And a theatre isn't likely to be named after someone who has only been in the industry for 20-30 years. It feels like it has to be a big, lifetime achievement legacy recognition. And the problem is that there are comparatively few POC of Prince's generation who had the footholds to build a legacy on par with his. Many of our most iconic Black theatre artists are either (a) more recent/currently working - and therefornot ready for such a lifetime achievement recognition, (b) more known for their avant-garde Off-Broadway work, not so much for working on Broadway, or (c) were mostly known for 1 big play/musical, and not much else. And all of that is a testament to the way in which Broadway has been a poor nurturing groundforBlack talent going back so many decades.

So ultimately, I think we do have a few good candidates of color to receive a theatre named after them - and I think they should get that honor. But in the grand scheme of things,it's probably not the most productive use of time and energy. It seems like it's better to focus on fostering meaningful change at the base level: nurturing a more equitable future and present - allowing space for more producers of color, more writers and directors of color, and possibly even more theatre owners of color (this one seems the most logistically unlikely in this current moment - but hey, we know the Nederlanders have been selling some of their houses this week, so fingers crossed lol!). Re-naming theatres is not an insignificant gesture, but at the end of the day, it's an empty one unless it's accompanied by actual change in the industry."

I generally agree with your intention; however, Lorraine Hansbury wrote one play for the ages (and it is flawed -- I will never buy the sudden transition of Walter Lee); compare that to Prince's contribution. I would like the idea of naming a theatre after a woman at the same time, but -- and I know that I will be accused as being racist -- but who is there of color RIGHT NOW who has made anything approaching the kind of contribution to the THEATRE that Prince has made, other than August Wilson and JAMES EARL JONES.

The problem as always is that a lot of people should be considered. In addition to Prince, I can't help thinking that at least Tennessee Williams has to be considered, and Jones would be a great addition. Can't think of anyone else who is appropriate TODAY."

I could easily imagine an August Wilson theater, after he's died. Tennessee Williams is likely a lost cause because these things tend to happen within about a decade after a person's death. After 37 years, I wouldn't count on it. This does not mean Williams doesn't deserve one.

 

Updated On: 3/27/21 at 11:20 PM

[A Director]

Posted: 3/28/21 at 3:14am

Have posters here forgotten there is a Broadway theatre named for August Wilson?

http://www.spotlightonbroadway.com/theater/august-wilson

[JBroadway]

Posted: 3/28/21 at 4:37am

@A Director - if you’re referring to Joevitus’ comment above about “I can imagine an August Wilson theatre, after he’s died” then I admit I’m also a bit confused. But Joevitus is knowledgeable enough that I’m assuming he either used the wrong name accidentally, or phrased his statement in an unclear way.

If you’re referring more broadly to the people in this thread pointing out the deficit of theatres named after POC:

We know. But 1/41 are not great stats. And the odds are far worse when you include previous names for these theatres. Just because 1 Broadway theatre is named after a POC doesn’t mean there are “enough.” Granted, I still have reservations about whether this is a worthwhile crusade (as I explained in my earlier post), but regardless of whether or not this criticism is valid, rest assured that it doesn’t stem from people being unaware of the August Wilson theatre.

[joevitus]

Posted: 3/28/21 at 4:49pm

JBroadway is very kind, and I'm glad he considers me knowledgeable, but I have to own that I did NOT know this, and so my post was a giant gaffe. I haven't been to NYC since the mid-80's, and most of my Broadway knowledge comes from reading books and plays, librettos when I can get them and listening to scores/watching tv programs about theater, catching shows or parts of shows on YouTube. I am embarrassed to say that somehow I'd forgotten--I did know it--- that August Wilson was dead. Very embarrassing, but true.

As for the argument that it would be unseemly for a theater to be named after Hal Prince when the percentage of POC with theaters named after them is so abysmally low, I cannot really get behind that, not because I'm unaware of the history of racism in this country it represents, nor because I am in any way okay with that history. But because I'm a realist. How many theaters are there even named after white playwrights? I can think of the Eugene O'Neil and the Neal Simon (that one perplexes me, to be honest). As for actors, how many actors who were given the chance to become famous contributors to the theater are yet dead? And how many POC have, prior to the current theater scene, had produced memorable, major Broadway shows, or had long-term Broadway songwriting careers? The situation of our past, even our recent past, is frustrating, but it is reality.

And it WILL change. With the far greater number of Broadway playwrights who are honored by critics and have big successes, with the greater proliferation of POC in the performing world in lead roles,  I can somewhat imagine a James Earl Jones theater (though he hasn't been considered a theater actor in so long, that might be dubious). I can much more easily imagine an Audra McDonald theater, a Jeremy O'Harris. Depending on whether he continue to create memorable Broadway shows, there could easily be a Manuel Miranda, although nobody is going to get a theater after them for one hit show, no matter how big a hit. If it ever happened before, history is not likely to repeat itself (and I don't think it has happened). Yes, Sondheim already has a theater named after him, but that's related to the unique cult of Sondheim. There might (though I'm not in any way sure there will) be an Andrew Lloyd Webber theater. And this may come before many other POC get theaters named after them. Because the past is the past. We can't change it to fit what we want our present world to be.

I know everyone hates to read "wait," and in many ways they hate it for good reasons. When people say it after yet another unarmed POC is gunned down by the police, or we see the continual refusal to provide the same education for POC in low-income neighborhoods as we see for other, more predominately white areas, it's a sickening term. There is no more time for waiting in these areas. (And the BLM protests are some of the best, most effective protest actions this country has ever seen.)

But when it comes to the world of theater, there is literally nothing else to do. Living Black playwrights and actors are is very strong numbers celebrated by what we call "the Establishment" now. They win lots of important awards and are building up/have built up careers of prestige. I'm sure Black choreographers and designers will be, too, if they haven't already. And those people will be in line for theaters named after them. Theatergoers will want theaters named after them. It quite possibly won't happen anytime soon because, happily, they are in the midst of their careers right now and the grave isn't calling for them anytime soon, which is when nine times out of ten a theater gets named for someone (unless someone buys a theater and names it for themselves or someone they feel like naming it after--few people have that sort of money at their disposal).

I don't think any of this should stop us from naming/re-naming a theater the Hal Prince because we're frustrated by history. Hal Prince was a major presence, and it's interesting to see that he's so respected that people talk of naming a theater after what is, in all honesty, the most quickly forgotten aspect of a show: the director. But he was that unique and groundbreaking a director. Most shows, whatever the credits read, aren't thought of as "a (fill in director's name) show." But Hal Prince's shows sure were. 

So, yes, name a theater after him. Don't be caught up in "it has to go to a POC first because of underrepresentation." In the theater world Prince was part of for most of his career, as much as we hate it, POC just weren't allowed to make the same impact, so unsurprisingly, there's no one of that era who has recently died who is a candidate more worthy than Prince. But Prince himself is worthy. And the theaters named after POC will come. In so many areas of life, I am not sure that progress is being made. But in theater and among the true theater-loving crowd? Oh, most definitely. 

[NameGreg]

Posted: 3/28/21 at 5:42pm

StardustsChild said: "If they do it, it should be the Broadway.
The name has given marketing teams headaches for years, and it was Prince's home for Cabaret, Evita, Baker Street, and Candide. "

I agree. Prince was a legend in every sense of the word and he deserves this honor.

Sure, it may not seem like the right time to name a theatre after another white hit, but he’s quite possibly the greatest theatre director of all time, and given his recent passing, it just feels right to me.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/29/21 at 5:50pm

He definitely deserves one. Problem is no new theaters coming on line. To give him one you have to drop one person who has a theater named after them. Not exactly fair but than again who said life is fair.

A puzzlement indeed.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/29/21 at 6:01pm

Mr Roxy said: "To give him one you have to drop one person who has a theater named after them. Not exactly fair but than again who said life is fair.

A puzzlement indeed."

Yes, a puzzlement. The families of Mssrs Majestic, Imperial, Broadway, to name but a few, would be up in arms if their beloveds were dropped.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/29/21 at 6:12pm

Hogan you are correct. I thought all theaters had been renamed. Majestic would be a great choice to honor a man whose career was Majestic .To Name Greg. A person whose career was deemed worthy of this honor should not be judged by their race .

[jv92]

Posted: 3/29/21 at 6:42pm

Hogan, I’m terribly sorry I was so petulant the other day. I have a lot of feelings on what is going on re BIPOC artists in the theatre, mostly good. I really think such a topic deserves nuance. But I still think “optics” is horsesh*t that gives too much credit to Twitterverse. 
 

Apology aside, how ‘bout the Winter Garden? He did stage manage his first show there (WONDERFUL TOWN), aside from FOLLIES and so on... 

[George in DC]

Posted: 3/29/21 at 7:12pm

The Broadway Theatre seems ideal - It housed Fiddler, Cabaret, Candide and Evita.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 3/29/21 at 8:34pm

@jv92 I'm glad you came back. "Woke" means an awareness of injustice, in this case racial injustice. Reasonable people can argue about how to rectify long-term systemic racism, and also about "optics." I don't think it is reasonable to deny racial injustice (in fact I'm sure of that); it does not sound like that's where you are coming from. That said, I don't think you can discard optics as something that is relevant only in the realm of the twitterverse; it's a much more nuanced subject, to borrow your word.  

[goodlead]

Posted: 3/30/21 at 12:51pm

In response to Niles Silver: There was a George Abbott Theater at one time. It was on 54th ST. and at various times had also been called the Crqig, the Adelphi, and the 54th St. It was never among the most sought-after houses, but among the shows that played it were On the Town, What Makes Sammy Run? and (I think) No Stribgs.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/31/21 at 8:07pm

Problem is too many worthy candidates and not enough theaters

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 3/31/21 at 9:11pm

Would be nice to see theaters named after actual artists but like has been said, the people owning the theaters don’t seem to think so. Just seems odd to know theaters after critics and cartoonists.

[Pashacar]

Posted: 4/1/21 at 1:06pm

As a funny aside, there actually is a Hal Prince Theater at his alma mater – just a modest 220-seat black box. I wonder if they did it to honor his achievements or because he forked over a donation.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 4/1/21 at 5:39pm

We should also have theaters named for:

Jerry Herman
Carol Channing
Ethel Merman
Bob Fosse
Cy Coleman
Jerome Kern.......

The list goes on

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 4/1/21 at 6:21pm

Gower Champion