2022-2023 Tony Award Eligibility Rulings Thread- Page 4

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 12:54am

I would love it if we could acknowledge that biological sex and gender identity are not the same thing. If a person is non-binary in their gender identity and being recognized as biologically male or female is going to be deeply upsetting to them, then maybe the societal construct of gender is not the issue.

I am fine with the inevitable move to having award shows do away with categories based on biological sex (which is what they are based on, since gender theory came long after most of these awards were created), but mostly because sex/gender shouldn’t matter in 99% of circumstances outside a medical setting. 

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 1:26am

As a non-binary person I support having a third category where nominees can be recognized without a gender marker, just a “Best Performer” category. I’m not saying that Best Actor/Actress necessarily needs to be done away. In the same vein that NB people like myself prefer alternatives to the binary (such as not being forced to select male/female on a drivers license), a third category for gender non-conforming performers is ideal to me. The queer community is a HUGE part of the Broadway community, and it’s frankly offensive that gender non-conforming people aren’t being thought of for award shows like this. 

[Luminaire2]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 2:53am

1. Best performer in a dramatic leading role: Musical
2. Best performer in a comedic leading role: Musical
3. Best featured performer in a dramatic leading role: Musical
4. Best featured performer in a comedic leading role: Musical 
5. Best performer in a dramatic leading role: Play
6. Best performer in a comedic leading role: Play
7. Best featured performer in a dramatic leading role: Play
8. Best featured performer in a comedic leading role: Play

 

There you go. 8 categories, 8 acting awards. Easy. No fuss, no muss.

Now let’s add a ninth and tenth category:

9. Best Ensemble in a musical

10. Best ensemble in a play 

Updated On: 2/2/23 at 02:53 AM

[Tevin Three]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 6:46am

Sharon Clarke was a lead in Death of A Salesman. She won the Olivier for lead actress in the same role.

EDIT:  I just read the following: Sharon D Clarke will be considered eligible in the Best Performance by an Actress in a Featured Role in a Play category for her performance in Arthur Miller's Death of a Salesman.

 

Updated On: 2/2/23 at 06:46 AM

[wickedwitch2]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 7:40am

Luminaire2 said: "

1. Best performer in a dramatic leading role: Musical
2. Best performer in a comedic leading role: Musical
3. Best featured performer in a dramatic leading role:Musical
4. Best featured performer in a comedic leading role: Musical
5. Best performer in a dramatic leading role: Play
6. Best performer in a comedic leading role: Play
7. Best featured performer in a dramatic leading role:Play
8. Best featured performer in a comedic leading role:Play

 


There you go. 8 categories, 8 acting awards. Easy. No fuss, no muss.

Now let’s add a ninth and tenth category:

9. Best Ensemble in a musical

10. Best ensemble in a play"

Maybe in 50 years (optimistically) that would work, but not today.  There's too much misogyny on Broadway and the world in general.

What happens if 80% of the play nominees are male for several years in a row?  (Most 20th century plays have more good roles for men than women.)  Seems to me like that would create a fuss, and deservingly so.

My current favorite solution: any performer (not just those who are non-binary) can choose between actor, actress, or a new gender neutral category.  Not perfect by any means, but non-binary people won't have to be forced to make a decision on their gender and will be less likely to be overlooked.  But this also prevents men being the only ones to win featured performer in a play for a decade in a row.

 

 

[BETTY22]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 7:54am

I care more about Justin David Sullivan's and other non binary performers thoughts on this subject than my own on this. 

Time to listen more and speak less 

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 10:08am

Caring about their thoughts and speculating on what the Tonys can do about it can co-exist.

Unlike most award shows, the Tonys honor - and most importantly publicize - productions that usually still ongoing, so I do think it's a unique situation where producers have to decide how to campaign, which would only get complicated if their leads or featured performers are pitted against each other. (Imagine Katrina Lenk and Tony Shalhoub having to compete not only against other shows, but themselves?) And if producers think they might cancel each other out, would they even bother spending money campaigning?

I don't think the answer is less awards, but some way to honor an additional category.

[Chase Miller]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 10:51am

I don't think it makes sense to add an entire new category for Non-Binary performances.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 11:16am

I think the reality is, there are going to be issues however this problem is fixed. If we go to gender neutral categories, there will be outrage whenever it's 8 men and 2 women who get nominated. If we go to male and female categories but add a non-gender specific one, there's going to be outrage when there aren't enough performances to fill it or the Tonys decide none of those performances are worthy in a given year so eliminate the category. And to earlier points, we already see lobbying for two male leads or two female leads in a show to be split between leading and featured so both could win. Now imagine when producers are required to pit both their male and female leads against each other (not to mention the backstage drama that will undoubtedly occur when the producer decides to champion one over the other).

To be clear, there absolutely is a problem with the categories as they are now and I'm in no way advocating against any change happening. It needs to and it will. It's just a little more complicated than simply going to gender neutral categories, unfortunately. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 12:41pm

Broadway61004 said: "I think the reality is, there are going to be issues however this problem is fixed. If we go to gender neutral categories, there will be outrage whenever it's 8 men and 2 women who get nominated."

Yes, but here's the thing though: if people want to make the argument that gender is an irrelevant social construct to the point that they want gender-neutral acting award categories, shouldn't the number of people who identify as men vs. the number of people who identify as women (and the numbers of people who identify as neither/both etc.) not matter? If the awards are going to be gender neutral, they need to be so both in theory and in practice.

Anyway, I like a previous poster's suggestion that they instead divide the awards into dramatic vs. comedic (another binary, but whatever). I mean really, there is no reason why actors playing Leo Frank and Sweeney Todd should be competing against an actor cracking jokes and tapping up a storm in Some Like It Hot. It's a completely different skill set that is being demanded.

 

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 1:07pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Yes, but here's the thing though: if people want to make the argument that gender is an irrelevant social construct to the point that they want gender-neutral acting award categories, shouldn't the number of people who identify as men vs. the number of people who identify as women (and the numbers of people who identify as neither/both etc.) not matter? If the awards are going to be gender neutral, they need to be so both in theory and in practice."

Completely agree that it shouldn't make a difference.  I'm just not at all convinced that we're there yet as a society (I'd love to be proven wrong).  If you look at the Oscars this year, for instance, there was outrage over having 5 male Best Director nominees, even though it was pretty widely considered those were the 5 best directors of the year.  I just feel like we'd see the same thing if we went to gender-neutral categories.  I agree it's counterintuitive to the idea of gender-neutral categories to get upset over something like that, but I still feel like a lot of people would (but again, hopefully I'm way off and will be proven wrong by this).

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 1:29pm

think you have to look at gender-neutral acting categories over a 5-10 year span after implementation. If 2 years in a row you get 6 men nominated and 4 women, that's not necessarily a trend –– it's just how the work shook out that year. I think it would be pretty even at the end of the day, with perhaps a slight edge to women.

and the gender divide is pretty even amongst actors in stage shows, as opposed to film directing, which is still a disproportionately male field, especially at the major studio level.

[pmensky]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 2:15pm

I believe every Tony category should be subjected to better standards to keep the awards competitive and truly an honor. A category should only exist in any given season if there are a specific number of people eligible, and that number should be higher than the maximum number of nominations allowed in a category. You always hear, “it was an honor just to be nominated,” but it’s not really an honor if you’re nominated just because you’re eligible. Aaron Tveit won Male Leading Actor In a Musical in his category in 2021, yet how could he be the best when he was the only one? That’s not an honor, that’s dumb luck. I get that Covid was an issue, and it was important to return to normalcy, etc., but moving forward there should be higher standards. So, if they want to define acting categories by gender, and there are a specific number of non-binary actors eligible to make a category competitive, then it seems equitable and common sense for that category to exist that year. 

[jonartdesigns]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 3:19pm

My fiancée pitched a rather simple solution to non-binary performers. Assuming the role has a gender, and most do, just nominate the performer in the gender of the role. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than the can of worms many other solutions open? I’d argue yes.

[chrishuyen]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 3:25pm

So what do you do if the role itself is nonbinary?  Both Some Like It Hot and & Juliet deal with trans/nonbinary storylines for a character.  And for shows like Once on This Island, gender was more of a handwavey construct for Papa Ge and Asaka since they were technically genderswapped in terms of the people playing them, but not quite acknowledged as such in the story.  

[Chase Miller]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 3:27pm

Can't there just be an asterisk next to a genderless person noting that they don't identify as either man or woman? For example:

• Best performance by a Featured Actor in a Musical:
  • Cleavant Derricks – Dreamgirls as James  Early
    • Obba Babatundé – Dreamgirls as C.C. White
    • David Alan Grier  *This person does not identify as male or female.– The First as Jackie Robinson *
    • Bill Hutton – Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat as Joseph

 

[pmensky]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 3:55pm

Chase Miller said: "Can't there just be an asterisk next to a genderless person noting that they don't identify as either man or woman? For example:

• Best performanceby a Featured Actor in a Musical:
  • Cleavant Derricks–Dreamgirlsas James Early
    • Obba Babatundé–Dreamgirlsas C.C. White
    • David Alan Grier *This person does not identify as male or female.–The Firstas Jackie Robinson *
    • Bill Hutton –Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoatas Joseph

"

This is like asking why black people didn’t just paint their faces white when they wanted to ride in the front of the bus.

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 4:21pm

Dividing up categories by the gender of the role wouldn't work either, and neither would creating a third gender category because non-binary people make up a relatively small part of the population both in "real life" and (especially) as characters in theatre and film. You'd end up with more Aaron Tveit type situations where there is only one or two people eligible and win be default.

In Chicago, the Jeff Awards went to gender-neutral acting categories a few years ago and it's been working out pretty well so far. Granted, they have two winners in each acting category now, which I don't think the Tonys should do, but I wouldn't say the nominees and winners of the recent Jeffs have leaned towards one gender or the other, really. I think the voters make a conscious effort to be gender-inclusive even though the categories are gender-neutral. This is the only solution I see for the Tonys.

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 5:21pm

Chase Miller said: "I don't think it makes sense to add an entire new category for Non-Binary performances."

Why? You sound like a dumb bigot posting something like this with no reasoning. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 5:40pm

QueenTwinnied said: "Chase Miller said: "I don't think it makes sense to add an entire new category for Non-Binary performances."

Why? You sound like a dumb bigot posting something like this with no reasoning."

 

Calling someone a "dumb bigot" is not productive, and not very nice when they haven't actually said anything bigoted. Although I think Chase should have elaborated on what he was trying to say, there are actually a number of reasons why it doesn't make sense to add a new acting category of "Non-Binary Performer. The biggest one I can think of is - as I mentioned in my last post - non-binary people still make up a small percentage of the population (albeit this percentage tends to be much higher in the arts). What happens if only one or two performers are even eligible? Do they just win by default? Also, what if someone isn't "non-binary" per se, but enjoys experimenting with gender presentation or is fluid in their identity? Do they get to pick the category in which they have the best odds of winning that year? That could be an issue.

Again, I think simply having the categories be gender-neutral, i.e. "Performer in a Supporting Role in a Play" is the least problematic solution, and if people are concerned about less awards being given out, divide it by drama/comedy, i.e. "Performer in a Leading Role in a Musical (Drama)."

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 6:06pm

QueenTwinnied said: "Chase Miller said: "I don't think it makes sense to add an entire new category for Non-Binary performances."

Why? You sound like a dumb bigot posting something like this with no reasoning."

There just aren't anywhere close to enough performances to warrant this (yet). Like this year we have one big leading performance and two big featured performances (I'm assuming Alex Newell's role in Shucked is featured), all in musicals, and that's it. Maybe some of the 1776 actors playing minor parts, but they are all playing Cis characters even if some of them were non-binary and none of those are really parts that should be in contention for Tonys (nothing against the actors at all, they're just very small parts).

Then, if it becomes a general gender neutral category that anyone can opt into, it immediately becomes a whole tony politics thing where producers try to play the categories because they think they have a better shot in over the other. It's gross, but you just know it's what will happen. 

[Mr. Wormwood]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 10:59pm

Luminaire2 said: "

1. Best performer in a dramatic leading role: Musical
2. Best performer in a comedic leading role: Musical
3. Best featured performer in a dramatic leading role:Musical
4. Best featured performer in a comedic leading role: Musical
5. Best performer in a dramatic leading role: Play
6. Best performer in a comedic leading role: Play
7. Best featured performer in a dramatic leading role:Play
8. Best featured performer in a comedic leading role:Play

 


There you go. 8 categories, 8 acting awards. Easy. No fuss, no muss.

Now let’s add a ninth and tenth category:

9. Best Ensemble in a musical

10. Best ensemble in a play"

 

Just out of curiosity - in this scenario, would the drama/comedy be categorized by performance or by show (as they are for Emmys). Like, would someone nominated for Thenardier in Les Mis be nominated in comedy or drama since it's a comedic role in a dramatic show?

Agreed about the ensembles though. That should have happened years ago along with Best Original Song.

[Chase Miller]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 11:08pm

QueenTwinnied said: "Chase Miller said: "I don't think it makes sense to add an entire new category for Non-Binary performances."

Why? You sound like a dumb bigot posting something like this with no reasoning."

 

Ok. 

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 2/2/23 at 11:43pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "Broadway61004 said: "I think the reality is, there are going to be issues however this problem is fixed. If we go to gender neutral categories, there will be outrage whenever it's 8 men and 2 women who get nominated."

Yes, but here's the thing though: if people want to make the argument that gender is an irrelevant social construct to the point that they want gender-neutral acting award categories, shouldn't the number of people who identify as men vs. the number of people who identify as women (and the numbers of people who identify as neither/both etc.) not matter? If the awards are going to be gender neutral, they need to be so both in theory and in practice.

Anyway, I like a previous poster's suggestion that they instead divide the awards into dramatic vs. comedic (another binary, but whatever). I mean really, there is no reason why actors playing Leo Frank and Sweeney Todd should be competing against an actor cracking jokes and tapping up a storm inSomeLike It Hot.It's a completely different skill set that is being demanded.

"

Gender is a relevant social construct to the people who have been fighting for women’s rights for decades/centuries. I fight for LGBT rights too, but the existence and rights of non-binary people doesn’t and shouldn’t erase binary people (cis or trans).

I do think the drama/comedy solution is an interesting one, but I definitely worry about everything being male-dominated, and about how shows will handle pitting their stars against each other.

There’s no simple solution here.

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 2/3/23 at 10:04am

Mr. Wormwood said: "Just out of curiosity - in this scenario, would the drama/comedy be categorized by performance or by show (as they are for Emmys). Like, would someone nominated for Thenardier in Les Mis be nominated in comedy or drama since it's a comedic role in a dramatic show?

Agreed about the ensembles though. That should have happened years ago along with Best Original Song."

 

 

I would assume it would be by show (ala Emmys or Golden Globes), but that's an interesting point/suggestion. And there would be all sorts of questions about what's a comedy, what's a drama, etc.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually hate the thought of a Tony for Best Ensemble. While I don't at all argue that the ensemble often gets overlooked when they're often the hardest-working people in the show, I just feel if we start to give Tonys to every single person in a 15-member ensemble every year, it's going to really lessen the value of the phrase "Tony winner". It would essentially be giving out 20+ acting Tonys every year. But I do wish there was another way to honor ensembles more (one thought I've heard propose is having a Best Ensemble award but giving the award to the casting director).

Updated On: 2/3/23 at 10:04 AM