An Open Letter To All Posters on This Board - Page 2

[tazber]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 8:46am

Best post in the thread, Jane.

[Jane2]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 8:49am

thanks, Taz.

[Liza's Headband]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 8:59am

Great post. Some posters on here go way too far with their animosity about performers and shows on here. The only thing most people gain on an anonymous message board is a delusion of power. So much snark and negativity gets said on this board that they wouldn't dare say to someone's face in real life.

You should definitely delete this part of your post immediately, broadway guy, or I will pull out all the threads in which you harassed and bullied and trolled hundreds of people only two years ago (maybe less). 

You are the epitome of delusional. While the OP is well-intentioned, the above is a great example of this thread falling on deaf ears since the hypocrites, who always claim to be the perfect saints, refuse to look at themselves in the mirror first.

Please get off your high horse, bilbo/broadway guy.

[broadwaytbay]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 9:35am

I was really moved by the original poster's letter.  The internet provides us with a certain level of anonymity and distance, and as such it is easy to forget the real people and real feelings associated with the readers, especially those invested in a production. It is sometimes a case of intent vs impact.  The intent being to share feelings and opinions, the impact being to hurt someone who has an emotional stake in what you are discussing.   Someone said rejection is a part of the game, and yes I agree it is. However name me the person who invests time, effort, energy, talent, care and love into what they do, and doesn't feel some personal sense of pain when it gets torn down, spit on, and set ablaze, whether it be by a professional critic or an arm chair internet one.

[Broadwayhunk]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:06am

Seriously, dear, if you are worried about what people write in an anonymous comments section instead of concentrating on your production, it may give an indication of your success or lack of it in show business.  

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:12am

So, before reading this thread, I posted a snarky note on the closing announcement thread for Dr. Z. I have tickets for tonite, and was hoping, if closing was inevitable, I'd be spared and get our money back...but our timing was off.

Then I read the lovely note by the OP, and the rest of the comments, which I appreciate, but find some fault with.

I don't think there are many folks on this board who HOPE a show will fail. Very few are actually that hateful...though they are around. I just consider them trolls and move on.

Many of us here on BWW are performers, even if we are not active, that doesn't leave you, so we know what it feels like to be in a poorly received show. Once upon a time, if an audience didnt like you, you got booed and had fruit thrown at you. 

It comes with the territory when you put your talents up for scrutiny. Sometimes it's rousing applause! Sometimes not. I dont get applause anymore for doing a good job.

But. Isn't this board a place for those of us who go to the theater, in NYC and elsewhere, to discuss what we've seen, compare to other shows, maybe try to be witty in our assessments, and agree to disagree sometimes?

So, if a certain show is mostly disliked, isn't it valid to say so? Whether it's the critics in print, or on this board, why should anyone need to hold back? That indeed IS part of the business. If you want a show to be successful, people need to like it. How do they assess if they might like it? They ask someone. It's an expensive mistake to make, so going in with some knowledge from folks who should know (critics) help to make a decision on spending that dough.

I'm sorry for those who will lose their jobs, and I am hoping we enjoy the show tonight. Best of luck to all on the next show.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:17am

@CATSNY-I don't think the question generally relates to criticizing the taste of others (and when it does, it is just one opinion vs another). And when I say a show "should close," I am NEVER basing that on the opinions of others expressed on here. Rather, it is based on an analysis of the numbers. As I said previously, a show I think is bad should not close because of that, and I would never say otherwise. (E.g., Neverland.) Nothing anyone says on here is as insulting or disheartening as looking at the grosses and attendance for a show and seeing that folks can't be bothered to see it. And no praise here is as exhilarating as seeing a sea of faces staring at a stage.

@kristin-I totally agree about the need for a safe environment, which is why I related the advice I'd heard many times about not straying into situations where the opinions of other had the potential to disrupt that environment while a show is running.

@bilbo- re saying something to someone's face: that's true, but not comparable. More comparable would be someone debriefing a show at Joe Allen's while someone involved in the show but unknown to the speaker lurks nearby listening in. The bottom line is that reading threads on this board about a show you are working on is a bad idea, but one that's controllable. 

@broadwaytbay-yes negative criticism can cause pain, but it is avoidable and should be avoided. The only pain that can't be avoided is looking out in the house and seeing empty seats. Analyzing the reality of a production's prospects is not what causes the pain; it is just the messenger. And while it sounds pleasant to say folks should not express negative opinions, the flipside of that is that only saying positive things fails the honesty test and sends people to shows without a good sense about them. All shows are dying for word of mouth; it is intellectually dishonest to only convey good word of mouth. People like the OP don't need to hear any of that word of mouth.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:17am

"While I appreciate your passion - I must question your reality - why would what any anonymous poster says have any effect on what you do or strive for as an artist? Don't give them that sort of power. "

While I get this, it's far less disheartening to try to expect better of others than to just go around expecting the internet to suck all the time anyway.

Yes, please grow a thick skin. But shrugging the catapults of manure off as the status quo doesn't have to be acceptable either.

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:20am

Many on this board need an attitude adjustment, I hope this thread was it. Yes, we can have differences of opinion: some may like a show and some may not. I don't think that's the problem, the problem is the overwhelming nastiness and vitriol some on here are prone to which is so unnecessary. You can express your opinion without being an @ss about it.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:25am

First and foremost, the media critics and the armchair ones here are merely stating their opinion. It does not make it gospel. If you buy your ticket, it is your choice to like or dislike it. How does one explain a show that gets almost unanimous raves but still has its naysayers? Who is right- those who rave or those who do not? It is all subjective in the end.

How can a show like Rotten get fairly decent reviews & yet Lord Brantley pans it ? If Brantley is to be believed, how did it get all those Tony nods? Were the nominators paid off? I recall shows panned that we loved & those praised that we could not wait to leave. Some on this board feel like kings and queens and make royal decrees that they do not like something so the subjects are so ordered not to like it as well.

The love I had for Broadway I no longer have. My wife and I see shows to keep busy or if the show itself interests us. In years past, we saw most of the nominated shows & we loved theater. This year is different.With each passing year, we are getting more ambivalent. If we see something ,fine. If not, we don't. Somehow we survived by seeing less. 

[jv92]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:34am

I don't think anyone with any validity on the BWW board really "wishes" for a show to close. Some troll or delusional nincompoop, maybe. But the longtime (or in rare cases, short-time) posters who know a thing or two about the business, who try to express themselves articulately and thoughtfully...I don't think so. In any case... 

I wish you the best in the future, and I'm sorry that ZHIVAGO is closing. It's a shame when something closes so quickly and doesn't get a chance to catch on. But sometimes, it's the nature of the business. If you are proud of the show and your work, that's all that matters. F*ck the rest of it all. 

Anyway, that's about all I have to say. Oh, and the old Michael Bennett quote, too-- "Tell them, No show runs forever." 

 

 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:38am

Well said JV especially the **** part.

Re a show not running forever - Cats - Now & Forever. Remember that line. Now we are getting it back. Was not my cup of tea than & still is not. To those who enjoyed it or will see it for the first time ENJOY. The fact that I did not like it should not color your judgment. Go in with an open mind and whatever happens happens.

Updated On: 5/5/15 at 10:38 AM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:46am

'But. Isn't this board a place for those of us who go to the theater, in NYC and elsewhere, to discuss what we've seen, compare to other shows, maybe try to be witty in our assessments, and agree to disagree sometimes

It certainly is.  But I think this is a good reminder to perhaps reflect on how we discuss shows.  I know, in my 12 years posting on this board (JESUS!) that I've come to regret how I've spoken on shows and performers.  A number of years ago, I made a concerted effort to change my tone when discussing shows and those attached to them.  I've tried hard to be respectful of the people who work in this business...my business.  Why was I trying so hard to be snarky and dismissive?  Probably mostly because I was feeling badly about where my career was.  So really...it was all on me.  It had far less to do with the quality of the shows and performance and more to do with how I'd take my disappointment out on people who were simply doing their job.  Do I still say c*nty things?  Sure.  We're all (mostly) human.  But I try very hard not to put so much negativity about shows out into the world.  

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:52am

Good for you Robbie

Unfortunately there are many on this board incapable and/or unwilling to do what you did. To hear some people, a show was a turd. If so, why do people knowingly invest unless they want a tax write off.

Some shows do not work. In the 60's, the landscape was littered by shows closing out of town. It is different today. The cost to produce a show is so expensive, it has to be beyond bad to close it before it opens. Ticket prices enter into it. In the past, prices were reasonable & people would take a chance to see a show with not stellar reviews. These days, prices are so sky high those shows on the margins simply cannot cut it and are forced to close.

[doodlenyc]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:57am

Maybe I missed the vitriol regarding this particular show, I just have read true dislike for many aspects of it, and a few who liked it. Trolls who do searches so they can find threads to trash a show repeatedly is the favored exercise of only a handful on here.

I always say that bad theater is important to see, and I've only walked out of one show, out of respect (and hoping it would get better).

And, Robbie, you've never really been c*nty.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 10:57am

I have a very different opinion on this matter. First of all, I have not seen this show because the Dr. Zhivago story never really interested me.

However, people working in creative fields seem to think that they are somehow above everyone else. They clothe themselves in the flag of "You don't have the right to say bad things about us."

The fact is that you are selling a product just the same as everyone else. If I go to a bad restaurant and I get food poisoning, I'm going to wish that place were closed down because the product that is being sold is not acceptable.

I've lived long enough to see the price of Broadway tickets become unreachable for the middle class. And off-Broadway has been dying a slow death for many years. In the old days, when you went to a stinker show, you didn't feel so bad about the money you lost. But now the stakes are different. The price is higher, so people expect more. And with the internet, they can express their opinions immediately. I say that to say that NYC theater doesn't see the widening chasm of ticket price vs quality. We're supposed to cheer Broadway just like we would seeing Aunt Ida play Mother Superior in a community theater production of TSOM. It's not the same thing.

Of course I don't wish for people to be unemployed. But the fact that creative people don't seem to realize is that if your product is not what the public wants then you have to work towards something they do want.

To take the attitude that I'm just a peon backstage and have no creative control is a cop-out. I've worked for companies that I've had no say in the decisions made and I've just had to accept that if I wanted a paycheck, I had to roll with it until I could find something better. I've been in companies that were sold right out from under me because the Chairman wanted to retire and selling the company would make him rich. It wasn't my company so I had to pick myself up and go somewhere else.

As a creative person, there are choices for security. You could hook yourself with one of the regional theaters that have more steady employment.

I'm just tired of creative people trying to pretend like they are on some level better than everyone else.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:01am

I appreciate the sentiment of this message. I also think that its author would be surprised by how many of us are theatre professionals, and know how hard and unreliable this field can be. I find the idea that NOT celebrating the existence of all/any shows is hurtful to the business (and more importantly, the art) to be extremely dubious. And condescending.

I had a big heartbreak working on a Broadway flop not long ago. But the show only ran a few  months because the material just wasn't good, even though there was great talent and potential involved. It flopped because it didn't work. And you know what? I went on to more satisfying work, and just having the Broadway credit helped me.

An audience member paying $200 for a sub-standard experience does not help build up anything. The Broadway will not be empty for long, and its next tenant will also employ many people. We owe the high volume of productions that we are currently enjoying to shows that either have wide appeal or that are just plain good. 

Updated On: 5/5/15 at 11:01 AM

[starcatchers]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:08am

""... there are certain things you have to come to understand about this crazy business. Unlike some other areas where one can work, the overwhelming dynamic of the theatre is rejection: actors are rejected, playwrights are rejected, directors are rejected, and shows are rejected,  etc etc etc. You have to learn that it is part of the way of theatrical life."
 
While there is ample rejection in this industry, I'd say the real "overwhelming dynamic" is creativity, which requires a safe environment to flourish.  
Snark and harsh criticism can be funny and seductive, but it is often also a form of bullying.  I find it sad to see the extent to which it has permeated the industry recently, and urge people to indulge in it privately if so inclined but not spew it widely since, like other forms of abuse, it can be self-perpetuating.
Opinions are cheap, but snark is cheaper.
 
 "

 YES. And to the OP, thank you for this post. I wish you all the best. 

[SNAFU]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:10am

Roxy, please, Broadway has always been expensive! Sure, I paid $20 for a SRO ticket for the original Jesus Christ Super Star, cheap right? My weekly paycheck back then was $140 a week. Not so cheap after all.

 I have worked on many shows, both on and off Broadway and have seen my work dragged over the coals on this very board. I did not and do not take it personally. Tis' the nature of the beast.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:17am

It is bullying of a different sort but still bullying.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:29am

The tkts booth opened in 1973.  So obviously the prices weren't reasonable or affordable to everybody.

[LarryD2]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:32am

I forgot that absolutely everything is considered "bullying" nowadays. But criticism is not bullying, unless it comes from a place of personal attack. People have rights to their opinions and to express them. I have to agree with Goth here--the fact that people worked hard to put on a show does not, and should not, discount the opinions of those who've paid to see it. It doesn't matter that it's a "labor of love." Many things that are open to criticism are. 

[newintown]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:38am

Every time I go into a theatre, it's with the high hopes that the show will be great. I imagine most audiences do the same.

However, if the show is not great, or not good, or unbearably dull, I'll express what seems to be the truth (to me).

It doesn't mean that anyone set out to fail; but there's no reason not to acknowledge failure.

"Failure" has become a dirtier word than any of those that are automatically edited out of most posts, but (like death) failure is an unavoidable fact of life. Unless we can discuss it openly, if we keep pretending that no one fails, we'll just keep recreating the same old mistakes.

[jv92]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:40am

The more and more I think about it, the more I agree with Goth and LarryD2. I still stand by my advice about how to handle a failure in show business (which is easier said that done, I know), but there's much validity in what Goth wrote. (Except I think there's a difference between a bad show, and a restaurant that gives a person food poisoning. I wouldn't call a mediocre or bad play or musical a public health issue.) 

 

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 5/5/15 at 11:41am

Attempts by some here to force people off the board because they do not agree with them is a form of bullying. It is practiced here as a fine art by a number of individuals on the board.