Is Tootsie Closing Next? — Page 5

Fredrich Yeager said: "I am also a trans person who works in the theatre industy and I think claims that this show is transphobic are absurd and delegitimize actual concerns trans people have on our hands re: transphobic politicians. Crying wolf when people have explicitly worked to make shows that are respectful of trans people lowers the already poor perception of us as a community, and makes people want to make fewer shows with us in mind, not more. The vast majority of trans people I have talked to have no issue with this show (I actually saw this show with a group of three other trans people). It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. I will write a much longer post, explaining why this show is not offensive if I must (I already have on the main thread about the Tootsie controversy actually), but for now can we just stop peddling that harmful rhetoric and labeling well intentioned people as transphobic?"



just so you know, I wrote a post on Twitter about why I saw tootsie knowing a lot of people had problems with it. I immediately got attacked. People called me transphobic, sent me messages that I was harming the community, it totally blew up WAY more than it needed to. I was so upset by what people were saying about me that I actually got distracted and couldn’t focus at work.

People were already giving me sh*t for having a strong opinion about bootlegs. I didd NOT deserve this treatment.



Why does the community think it’s okay to wish harm upon the actors involved in this? One wished an actor would get hit with a lamp from Hadestown. One wished harm upon an actors pregnant wife. This is taking it way too far and I don’t understand why people don’t get that!!!

Really enjoyed reading your message- I am seeing the show in October- and I bet I will agree with you- I am a lifelong very liberal Democrat- but this WOKE stuff is not for me.

Fredrich Yeager said: "I am also a trans person who works in the theatre industy and I think claims that this show is transphobic are absurd and delegitimize actual concerns trans people have on our hands re: transphobic politicians. Crying wolf when people have explicitly worked to make shows that are respectful of trans people lowers the already poor perception of us as a community, and makes people want to make fewer shows with us in mind, not more. The vast majority of trans people I have talked to have no issue with this show (I actually saw this show with a group of three other trans people). It is simply a vocal minority that will never be satisfied with anything, and young "woke" people on twitter who aren't even trans that just want to have something to yell about. I will write a much longer post, explaining why this show is not offensive if I must (I already have on the main thread about the Tootsie controversy actually), but for now can we just stop peddling that harmful rhetoric and labeling well intentioned people as transphobic?"


Thank you for sharing your perspective.

[edit: you did in fact ask a question] To address your question, I am not on Twitter so I can't really speak to those who do and say whether they should or should not stop. I do believe that if a trans person thinks something is transphobic, calling it out is recommended, otherwise the thing has an opportunity to spread (not that you need transphobia 101, I'm sure you know how it goes first hand). For me and my colleagues working to educate folx on the problematic, inherently transphobic nature of this show, we are not labeling someone as transphobic for writing, acting, or seeing the show, so the request to stop does not coincide with your request.

Sending you a lot of good vibes.

Updated On: 8/7/19 at 01:51 PM

Jayar2 said: "

"

Volunteering a response here, but that's because it's not on the surface. It's not like they are taking intentional swings at the trans community because they outwardly don't like or are openly ignorant about trans people or think they have their minds made up about trans people. This isn't Dave Chappelle level transphobia we're talking about.

Updated On: 8/7/19 at 04:14 PM

BWAY Baby2 said: "I am a lifelong very liberal Democrat- but this WOKE stuff is not for me."

I will remind folx that being a Democrat - liberal, very liberal, or otherwise - does not make you immune to supporting things that are problematic. If my being a trans person who calls out and works to help educate people from creating transphobic work is not for you, please let me know how I - and others in my community - can help reach you in a way that is effective.

Huss417 said: "You are new here why not sit back and get an overall feel for the room. :)

Oh and welcome to BWW. :)"



Thank you! I'm new to posting here, yes. This is an account I created specifically to communicate. But I've been a lurker on these boards for a few years now. Sort of a funny metaphor for what I think many in the TGNC are feeling in regard to this topic even: we've been around for awhile, we've watched it happen many many many times, and we're finally speaking up. We're not new, we're just new to you! Would love to hear what benefit you think would come of my sitting back further and what you anticipate I might discover by doing so. (did I misinterpret what you said? that's possible...)

The issue is not about transphobia one speck; if people want to make it about that, let 'em'.

The issue is about word of mouth on the show. Many of (most of?) the people on this board do not represent the larger world of theatregoers who see a limited number of shows a year and have seen the price of tickets go up! up! up!

Unlike many posters here who will buy tickets to shows that they know are seriously flawed / boring (based on WOM, reviews, etc.), the average occasional theatergoer is not going to rush to the box office if people are telling them it is just okay or lousy or terrific except for the mediocre score (IMO rotten score). If the show had been liked more and word of mouth was better, it would be doing better at the box office.

Re 'everyone in the theatre loved the show' comments, I laughed out loud multiple times throughout the show because of the terrific book; i probably seemed like I was loving the show based on those laughs. That was not the case. I enjoyed the show when it was a comedy, disliked it mega when it was being a musical. The score was mostly awful; the choreographer either had no imagination or was hindered by the lack of a decent score with which to work. Hell, the Act 1 closing number, which got middling applause when I saw it was the best they could do at the Tony's, and that number did them no favors. The number was flat, because the song was lousy and etc. I imagine they probably did it to show both Michael and Dorothy, but they would have been better off having a different number, if there was actually one that was any good. IMO the two good songs were the patter song performed by the past girlfriend and the torch song (as I remember it) sung by the co-star initially in the subway. I can't remember the characters' names. Neither of those were going to do the show any favors either, in the 'if this is the best number...' way of thinking.

That is the reason the show is not doing well.

My issue with the show is not that it was transphobic, but that it was just so unbelievably bland in every aspect except for the book.

---

Yeah as I said, I wonder if they’d threaten actors if a musical of Some Like It Hot made it to B’way. It’s gross, this manufactured outrage, it’s The Great Comet all over again.

The only difference was TGC had a great score and one of the most inventive productions of all time.

Tootsie is a B- musical.

SouthernCakes said: "I don’t see people threatening to shut down every production of Twelfth Night? So why does this strike a chord so much?"

Trans issues are very complicated, but Twelfth Night is slightly different as it's a woman pretending to be a man. Trans-men usually aren't victimized in the same way trans-women are, as (for the most part) transphobes joke about a "man-in-a-dress". As transphobes just see trans-men as "not men", it's no threat to them, but a "man-in-a-dress" for them is, which then becomes a joke. That then becomes a trope of not seeing trans-women who they are, women. They still don't see trans-men as men either, but it's not a harmful trope, so woman can joke about dressing as men and trans-men (as far as I'm aware) don't find it offensive.

I’m a queer academic, as I’ve said before, but you cannot win with one section of the transgender movement. As someone pointed out sometimes these kids aren’t even part of the LGBTQI+ community.

Transgender ideology has moved to the stage where they have become the gender binary police.

There is now cis and pre-cis. Many do not want to see themselves as a distinct group T or part of the LGBTQI+ community as a whole.

Pose FX completely erased drag queens from the Ball Culture because it’s now offensive to be a man in a dress!

Not every man in a dress is transgender or wants to be a woman. It’s especially frustrating that the movement will deny the likes of Marsha P Johnson her self-identified identity because it doesn’t fit with current trans ideology.

In the UK we are fighting real life TERFs like Graham Linehan but the community is focused on in-fighting and the erasure of queer identity.

What also really gets me is how the people attacking me and calling me transphobic for seeing the show were also people who are looking forward to Mrs. Doubtfire. It just confuses me. Yes, I know Daniel Hillard has more redeeming qualities than Michael Dorsey, but it's still the same "man dresses as a woman and takes a job from someone" idea. Also, was Michael's friend really a good actress? Did she deserve it more than the character Michael created? A lot of people also don't think it's creepy that Daniel dressed as a woman to get closer to his kids, but...I have to disagree?? I did like Mrs. Doubtfire more than Tootsie, but isn't it still wrong?? I just don't understand. But as people have previously said, this is different people, I am older than the people who made me feel like shyte. I don't know. I think they took it way too far.