Karen Olivo not returning to MOULIN ROUGE!- Page 7

[JBroadway]

Posted: 4/17/21 at 3:17pm

SouthernCakes said: "question about the pronouns: it’s listed as she/they, so in writing you wouldn’t put “hers” you’d put “they?” But you’d write “she said” and not “they said?” Just trying to understand it grammatically"

 

Again, I can't speak for anyone specifically, but based on my experiences being friends with people who use multiple pronouns:

Basically, when you refer to Karen, you can choose whether or not to use "she/her" or "they/them." Some might say "great, I'm more used to using she/her so I'll just keep doing that," but it's worth mentioning that making the active choice to use both pronouns is a powerful way of recognizing, validating, an respecting someone's complex identity. 

As for sentence structure, you could either choose to say "she said" or "they said," and in a different sentence, you may choose between "this belongs to her" or "this belongs to them." (One thing to be careful of is the reflexive pronoun: some people accidentally say "themselves" out of habit - but everybody only has 1 self, so for a non-binary person it would be "themself" - autocorrect might not like it, but language evolves and that's what's correct in this day and age!)

When people list their pronouns, they will often pick one form of each pronoun simple for convenience. They might say "she/they" but that's just an abbreviated way of saying "she/her/hers + they/them/theirs" -

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/17/21 at 4:34pm

Very briefly because most of this has already been said, it is unimaginable to me that anyone's IG or twitter feed influenced Rudin but it is highly likely that those higher level individuals who DID influence Rudin were in turn influenced by some of what they read. It is important to remember that there are multiple channels in this world, all of which serve a purpose. Some people who use the public channels are frustrated when more powerful people don't, but that's the nature of power. Most legislation passes Congress because of what transpired in cloakrooms, not via grandstanding on C-Span. 

Posted: 4/17/21 at 6:56pm

JBroadway said: "When people list their pronouns, they will often pick one form of each pronoun simple for convenience. They might say "she/they" but that's just an abbreviated way of saying "she/her/hers + they/them/theirs"

I admit to being fully ignorant on this, but I don't understand how it's possible to be both binary and non-binary. It seems like it's mathematically impossible.

Updated On: 4/17/21 at 06:56 PM

[bear88]

Posted: 4/17/21 at 7:11pm

HogansHero said: "Very briefly because most of this has already been said, it is unimaginable to me that anyone's IG or twitter feed influenced Rudin but it is highly likely that those higher level individuals who DID influence Rudin were in turn influenced by some of what they read. It is important to remember that there are multiple channels in this world, all of which serve a purpose. Some people who use the public channels are frustrated when more powerful people don't, but that's the nature of power. Most legislation passes Congress because of what transpired in cloakrooms, not via grandstanding on C-Span."

That sounds right and seems consistent with The Hollywood Reporter story (though the story understandably lacks a timeline, such as when Sutton Foster said she would quit The Music Man if Rudin didn't.)

It could have been a coincidence that Olivo's announcement came out around the time these discussions were occurring, and that one had nothing to do with the other. Olivo's concerns, especially as outlined in the American Theatre article, are much broader than the Rudin stuff. She just thought taking a public stand against Rudin should have been "an easy one." 

 

Updated On: 4/17/21 at 07:11 PM

[JBroadway]

Posted: 4/17/21 at 7:35pm

ctorres23 said: "JBroadway said: "When people list their pronouns, they will often pick one form of each pronoun simple for convenience. They might say "she/they" but that's just an abbreviated way of saying "she/her/hers + they/them/theirs"

I admit to being fully ignorant on this, but I don't understand how it's possible to be both binary and non-binary. It seems like it's mathematically impossible."


Gender is nebulous, and pronouns are an imperfect system for representing that spectrum/continuum. It’s not that anyone is “both binary and non-binary” it’s that some non-binary people may still use the pronouns that they were assigned at birth because of where they fall on the continuum. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/17/21 at 10:17pm

bear88 said: "That sounds right and seems consistent with The Hollywood Reporter story (though the story understandably lacks a timeline, such as when Sutter Foster said she would quit The Music Man if Rudin didn't.)

It could have been a coincidence that Olivo's announcement came out around the time these discussions were occurring, and that one had nothing to do with the other. Olivo's concerns, especially as outlined in the American Theatre article, are much broader than the Rudin stuff. She just thought taking a public stand against Rudin should have been "an easy one."

We don't know. I don't think it ultimately matters because it is the result that matters and hopefully the one we have is not smoke and mirrors. (For a variety of reasons, I don't think it is, but I don't know.) I hope Olivo (and other voices) did influence things because I am an Olivo cheerleader. I also hope people are energized by this to fight injustice where they see it. That would be the true victory here.

 

[WestEndGal]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 5:06am

I think Karen’s actions did have an impact. She’s a big name within the theater community and when you’re literally calling out your peers for being silent over a monster everyone has always known is a monster (and the THR article only put it all out in public) then how can you then walk into a Rudin show going forward like nothing has happened.

I don’t agree that everyone should be pressured into using their platform to make public stands (Sutton Foster for example) as long as they’re acting with integrity in private, but good for Karen for speaking out, and I applaud the courage that took. Sure she might be in a position to do that financially, but she woulda been in an even better position financially if she’d have stayed in Moulin Rouge.

[JayElle]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 6:40am

Hairspray0901 wrote in part, "I hope they bow out of the Music Man, or maybe give an ultimatum if possible - fire scott or we walk...sort of thing."

Your hope became reality. Sutton threatened to walk if something wasn't done about Mr Rude.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/behind-scott-rudins-move-to-step-back-from-broadway-productions

Meanwhile, Olivo has a family and life in Wisconsin. She didn't need the job or life upheaval following a year of the pandemic upheaval. "Mr. Rude" was just another catalyst for her to say "I'm done."

 

 

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 3:58pm

I agree. She had a pretty bad case of Covid in February of 2020, and didn't realize it. That is why she was out so much during that time and when people started talking about her attendance in MR and other shows as well. She has a husband, step-kids, a cool job and what seems a really nice life there. She isn't a young person right out of college that needs a job to survive. 

I hope she is happy and content going forward. 

[Dolly80]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 5:13pm

So everyone is supposed to alternate between she and they when addressing r talking about her?

Please. Life is too bloody short.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 6:01pm

It can be hard to realize the norms of world are moving on without you and you need to keep learning things as an adult, but trust me, it's better to grow.

[Dolly80]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 6:01pm

I don’t care what anyone wants to be called.. but that people are complaining that some haven’t alternated between She and They when discussing Karen Olivio post, is a new one on me. 
 

Every days a school day.

Updated On: 4/18/21 at 06:01 PM

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 8:18pm

Dolly80 said: "I don’t care what anyone wants to be called.. but that people are complaining that some haven’t alternated between She and They when discussing Karen Olivio post, is a new one on me.


Every days a school day."

Well you should care what anybody wants to be called. It's about respecting someone else's wishes. It's not about YOU. And if indeed every day is a "school day" as you put it then YOU are miserably failing. #BigFatZero

Updated On: 4/18/21 at 08:18 PM

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 8:52pm

Dolly80 said: "So everyone is supposed to alternate between she and they when addressing r talking about her?

Please. Life is too bloody short."

I think it means both are acceptable to her. 

[DAME]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 9:02pm

So just to be clear., so that I can be lazy and not read thru everything .. the producers of Moulin Rouge did nothing bad . She is just sick of it and the Rudin thing just pushed her over the edge? I just think that needs to be clear . Is it clear ?

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 9:08pm

no, it is not clear. read it or continue to embarrass yourself. Your choice.

[DAME]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 9:18pm

Nah. I would rather torment you.

[SmokeyLady]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 9:26pm

HogansHero said: "no, it is not clear. read it or continue to embarrass yourself. Your choice. "

How rude.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 9:37pm

DAME said: "Nah. I would rather torment you."

not possible. I recommend something that is possible: for you to educate yourself before saying silly things.

[ViniFromBrazil]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 10:08pm

I unfortunately feel that now that the two-time Tony winning actress is taking a stance people will take the situation more serious than it was when the lesser-known (and to be frank, more disliked) actress spoke out, but then again Karen could've been more explicit.

Posted: 4/18/21 at 10:23pm

Sutton Ross said: "Dolly80 said: "So everyone is supposed to alternate between she and they when addressing r talking about her?

Please. Life is too bloody short."

I think it means both are acceptable to her."

I thought so too, but this tweet - https://twitter.com/aliceabsolutee/status/1382700019476787210 - from stan Twitter (aka the canonical source of what's appropriate regarding pronouns) claims we should be alternating.

Which, no.

[Bette's Turban]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 11:28pm

HogansHero said: "DAME said: "Nah. I would rather torment you."

not possible. I recommend something that is possible: for you to educate yourself before saying silly things."

I prefer silly over obnoxious.  

Updated On: 4/18/21 at 11:28 PM

[JBroadway]

Posted: 4/18/21 at 11:57pm

The response to that Tweet above was essentially the same thing I said: no one is forcing you to alternate pronouns, but it's a powerful way of respecting and validating (or to use that person's word, "affirming" ) gender identity. If you're absolutely dead-set against alternating, using they/them pronouns exclusively is a workable option to acknowledge, at they very least, that they don't only use the pronouns that were assigned to them at birth. 

Updated On: 4/19/21 at 11:57 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/19/21 at 12:45am

Bette's Turban said: "HogansHero said: "DAME said: "Nah. I would rather torment you."

not possible. I recommend something that is possible: for you to educate yourself before saying silly things."

I prefer silly over obnoxious."

well with Dame you get a combo-pak, silly and obnoxious for the same low price. btw fwiw "silly" is the polite substitute word for the one that is most apt.

[DAME]

Posted: 4/19/21 at 11:51am

HogansHero said: "

well with Dame you get a combo-pak, silly and obnoxious for the same low price. btw fwiw "silly" is the polite substitute word for the one that is most apt."

Wow.  Ok.  Hate and bullying alive and present on BWW. You have a nice day.