Mrs. Doubtfire is gonna get protested- Page 4

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 9:42am

Learn to pick your battles.  When you don't you'll burn out.

MRS. DOUBTFIRE is not the big fish you think it is.  

That is all.  

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 9:59am

hearthemsing22 said: "…you’re kidding right?? The whole premise is him lying to his family about who he is!! He’s lying to them from the very beginning when he first decides to become Mrs. Doubtfire."

Gotcha. So…no stories are allowed to be told anymore where people lie. I’ll add that to the list of what makes Tik Tok aNgRy.  

 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 12:02pm

ArtMan said: "hearthemsing22 said: "Sutton Ross said: "Musical comedies are delightful. I love them so much. The full house at Tootsie had a great time when I saw it, laughter and full applause. It was considered a flop of course and maybe this will be too, but let people enjoy what they enjoy and resist the urge to assume something will happen and sh*t all over it. Thank you. "

That’s how I felt about Gettin’ The Band Back Together! Musical comedy, the audience clearly enjoyed it, but definitely flopped. I enjoyed it both times I saw it :)"

I really enjoyed Gettin' The Band Back Together also. Thought it was alot of fun. My only regret was the lead was out when I saw it."

It was so FUN! Not every show has to be deep and serious. :) Aw I’m sorry! I hope you enjoyed the show anyway? 

[soulmistin]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 4:28pm

Jordan Catalano said: "hearthemsing22 said: "…you’re kidding right?? The whole premise is him lying to his family about who he is!! He’s lying to them from the very beginning when he first decides to become Mrs. Doubtfire."

Gotcha. So…no stories are allowed to be told anymore where people lie. I’ll add that to the list of what makes Tik Tok aNgRy.

"

I agree with your point, but I don't really think that's the group of people who are going to get mad at this. Gen Z is a bit calmer than younger millennials 

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 4:34pm

I'm back here to say, I know it was clickbaity of me to start this thread but people like JBroadway have really opened the discussion up to explore my initial point that was never a troll post, just very hastily written, and I'm really relieved.

So to everyone who's actually having the conversation here that's awesome. To the people who keep dumping vitriol. Yikes. 

[sinister teashop]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 6:28pm

Apparently GLAAD was a consultant on TOOTSIE as well as MRS. DOUBTFIRE. I've always found GLAAD to be something of a racket which is no reflection of the worthiness or lack of worthiness of the two projects which I know nothing about except for their dreadful source material.

Updated On: 9/21/21 at 06:28 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 6:42pm

JBroadway said: "As I stated en my earlier post, I'm not convinced either way that Doubtfire is transphobic or not, because I think it depends on how its done, and I haven't seen it.

But people using "it's not as bad as trans people getting murdered" or "it's not openly anti-trans" as excuses - yikes.This "just be thankful it isn't worse" line of logic is atextbook form of manipulative gaslighting. Things can still be problematic and not be murder. Things can cause harm and not be murder. This kind of deflectivelogic has been used throughout history to get marginalized groups to stop fighting for fair treatment.

No,trans people were not murdered specifically because of Tootsie in particular. But trans women in real life are degraded and traumatized by being seen as a "man in a dress" punchline. And trans women in real life are degraded and yes,even murdered, because people see them as men who pose a risk of "invading" womens' spaces. And these ideas can be re-enforced by mainstream media. Even media that does not appear to be "anti-trans" on the surface. Are these individual pieces of media at fault for these women's murders? Should we put the burden of murder on these artists? No. But that's not an excuse to just indiscriminately ignore the big picture of how these things can accumulate into real-life harm.

EDIT - and once again, to make things absolutely clear: I am not trying to tell anyone on this board that they aren't ALLOWED to say these things.I'm expressing the reasons why I personally believe that comments like this are harmful and disrespectful. You are allowed to say these things, and I am allowed to respond."

I think this is really well stated. I've had issues with the whole "is it transphobic?" line of questioning going back to when Laverne Cox talked about "problematic" aspects of Dr. Frank-N-Furter, and it's easy for me to roll my eyes at the whole thing. But these questions originate in the experience of people who are extremely marginalized and all-too-frequently/easily dismissed and ridiculed. Which is quite a painful way to live.

I think you do a nice job of leaving it up to people to decide for themselves what is offensive while still pointing out the pain that people can experience through callous or clumsy approaches, and reminding us that it isn't only under the most extreme forms of suffering that it becomes valid to recognize the pain of others. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:02pm

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "So to everyone who's actually having the conversation here that's awesome. To the people who keep dumping vitriol. Yikes."

The problem is: you were not one of them, and the people "dumping vitriol" were highlighting the anemia of your posts that were thoroughly lacking in intellectual rigor. In the future, if you want to avoid being dumped on, try thinking through ideas and build a reservoir of support for them (if you can). When you post "very hastily written" "clickbait" you get what you deserve. 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:16pm

Jordan Catalano said: "hearthemsing22 said: "…you’re kidding right?? The whole premise is him lying to his family about who he is!! He’s lying to them from the very beginning when he first decides to become Mrs. Doubtfire."

Gotcha. So…no stories are allowed to be told anymore where people lie. I’ll add that to the list of what makes Tik Tok aNgRy.

Guess we can’t stage Hamlet anymore either?  He’s a guy who PRETENDS to be crazy - which of course is an insult to anyone who REALLY struggles with emotional issues! 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:32pm

JSquared2 said: "Guess we can’t stage Hamlet anymoreeither? He’s a guy who PRETENDS to be crazy - which of course is an insult to anyone who REALLY struggles with emotional issues!"

well this prompts an entirely different debate that this thread can't possibly contain...

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:32pm

Guess we can’t stage Hamlet anymore either? He’s a guy who PRETENDS to be crazy - which of course is an insult to anyone who REALLY struggles with emotional issues!"

Hamlet's state of madness or pretending to be mad is a reflection of the era his story is from. It's not insulting cause we are already aware this is a Shakespearian piece from a time of no knowledge of the intricacy of mental illness. The same way we can handle watching Romeo and Juliet die cause they lived in an era without cell phones. 

Troll with more intelligence please

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:35pm

The problem is: you were not one of them, and the people "dumping vitriol" were highlighting the anemia of your posts that were thoroughly lacking in intellectual rigor. In the future, if you want to avoid being dumped on, try thinking through ideas andbuild a reservoir of support for them (if you can). Whenyou post "very hastily written" "clickbait" you get what you deserve."

I'm glad you think I get what I deserve for calling attention to an actual necessary issue... 

[rattleNwoolypenguin]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:38pm

"I do love the classic 90s film cause Robin's performance but is has a sizable amount of transphobia in it. We're just truly in a different era and "straight men crossdressing to get away with something" is increasingly feeling yikesy. And yes before people sound off on me about "how it's actually a heartfelt story about divorce and a guy who wants to be with his kids" Yes all this I know- I am someone who loved the movie. But ya gotta ask yourself, are you a cis person defending it when you're not on the receiving end of transphobia? Some things just stop holding up as time goes on no matter how you defend intention"

a quote from my OP. Please tell me where I'll lacking "intellectual rigor" debating that cis people shouldn't necessarily defend it when they are not on the receiving end of transphobia?

[joevitus]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 8:52pm

rattleNwoolypenguin said: ""I do love the classic 90s film cause Robin's performance but is has a sizable amount of transphobia in it. We're just truly in a different era and "straight men crossdressing to get away with something" is increasingly feeling yikesy. And yes before people sound off on me about "how it's actually a heartfelt story about divorce and a guy who wants to be with his kids" Yes all this I know- I am someone who loved the movie. But ya gotta ask yourself, are you a cis person defending it when you're not on the receiving end of transphobia? Some things just stop holding up as time goes on no matter how you defend intention"

a quote from my OP. Please tell me where I'll lacking "intellectual rigor" debating that cis people shouldn't necessarily defend it when they are not on the receiving end of transphobia?"

I mean, we either allow for farce or we don't. All farce is improbable. No, a man would never really do this--nor get away with it if he tried (there is no comedy here unless the man is clearly identifiable as one, but if he is, the charade couldn't work--but I accept in movies and theater and t.v. behavior that is improbable as long as it is entertaining. Further, while I guess if a man really snuck into his children's home in disguise to live under another identity, it would be all kinds of intrusive/abusive/disturbing, this isn't life, it's comedy. 

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 9:35pm

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "a quote from my OP. Please tell me where I'll lacking "intellectual rigor" debating that cis people shouldn't necessarily defend it when they are not on the receiving end of transphobia?"

At the time, no one was defending a show most of us hadn't seen. Were we supposed to agree the show shouldn't reopen based on anecdotal evidence of people you know? Something "increasingly feeling yikesy" is not really an argument that we should stage a protest. Or did you just mean a twitter protest?

If the show properly opens and people have complaints, I will listen. 

I do think this kind of story is different from shows like Rocky Horror and Hedwig that engage with gender identity. Are we also going to cancel Victor/Victoria and Yentl and Twelfth Night?

Posted: 9/21/21 at 9:36pm

I don't have much to add except that the use of "yikes" is usually a red-flag that someone is Extremely Online and is therefore somewhat lost in the sauce.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 9:51pm

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "I'm glad you think I get what I deserve for calling attention to an actual necessary issue..."

What you did was the equivalent of throwing a match in a dumpster and what you are trying to do now is taking credit for the fire department showing up to put out your fire. 

And there are posts across 4 pages highlighting that your OP threw some troll-like phrases onto this board without having any foundation for your assertions. Hence the lack of intellectual rigor in your posts.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 11:47pm

I just don't think a gender disguising themselves as another gender is "transphobic." I get the concern, and with Tootsie, I get it, but with this not so much. I just think sometimes we forget our dollar matters. If you don't like it, don't want to see it, then don't. I don't think the show has any negative themes. 

[A Director]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 3:32am

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "Guess we can’t stage Hamlet anymore either? He’s a guy who PRETENDS to be crazy - which of course is an insult to anyone who REALLY struggles with emotional issues!"

Hamlet's state of madness or pretending to be mad is a reflection of the era his story is from. It's not insulting cause we are already aware this is a Shakespearian piece from a time of no knowledge of the intricacy of mental illness. The same way we can handle watching Romeo and Juliet die cause they lived in an era without cell phones.

CRAP! Yes, Hamlet and  Romeo and Juliet were written  centuries ago, but they are performed for today's audiences. Some people say Romeo and Juliet is about teen suicide.  There are teens with cell phones who die. The long and the short of it, you are an attention whore!

 

[themadmarchhare]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 3:42am

Having only seen the film, I personally don’t see the premise as inherently transphobic because of how his actions are framed. There’s never the ‘Lol man in a dress’ angle it’s more of a disguise farce of him trying to keep in contact with his kids. Mrs Doubtfire is almost a separate person to the dad in the end.

The only overtly transphobic element in the movie is when the kids walk in on him in the bathroom and freak out, assume he’s a predator and try and call the police going “she’s a he!”. It’s badly aged (in terms of an instant ‘assume they’re a predator’ angle) and from what I’ve seen the musical has cut that bit out.

It’ll be interesting though to see whether it’ll create a bigger (hopefully positive) discussion about the difference between ‘man in a dress’ transphobic humour and drag humour

[Impeach2017]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 4:06am

Only women (trans or cis) should be allowed to dress in women's clothing?  And only men (trans or cis) should be allowed to dress in men's clothing?  Otherwise, it is an affront to the trans community?  And the trans community wants to be the ultimate decider of what constitutes men's or women's attire and when it is not acceptable?  Questions, questions.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 7:39am

What does the Trans Community think of drag?  I'm truly asking.  Because if THAT as an artform is acceptable, they need to wait and see IF there is truly anything transphobic actually IN Doubtfire.

 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 8:02am

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "Guess we can’t stage Hamlet anymore either? He’s a guy who PRETENDS to be crazy - which of course is an insult to anyone who REALLY struggles with emotional issues!"

Hamlet's state of madness or pretending to be mad is a reflection of the era his story is from. It's not insulting cause we are already aware this is a Shakespearian piece from a time of no knowledge of the intricacy of mental illness. The same way we can handle watching Romeo and Juliet die cause they lived in an era without cell phones.

Troll with more intelligence please"

Or not at all :) It’s easy to block people if you can’t be kind to them 

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 8:06am

So everyone is okay with the fact that the character dressed as woman to lie and deceive his family? I’m confused.

[John Adams]

Posted: 9/22/21 at 8:22am

You've confused "disguised" with "transgendered". And FTR, neither should Robin Williams' character be confused as being "in drag".

joevitus is one who acknowledged the difference when he wrote, "Further, while I guess if a man really snuck into his children's home in disguise to live under another identity, it would be all kinds of intrusive/abusive/disturbing, this isn't life, it's comedy." It's a pedantic point (on my part), but Williams' character didn't sneak into the children's home, though. The intention of joevitus' larger point is more valuable.

I find it very disappointing and saddening that you would create and defend this negatively framed thread based on that lack of understanding. I don't wish you to add insult to injury by asking for any clarification, but the phrase, "actual necessary issue" has little meaning, if any.

RE: "are you a cis person defending it when you're not on the receiving end of transphobia":  You haven't clarified what the pronoun 'it' references (the entire movie? Some specific action, or idea contained within the plot?), so your context is lost. As for "transphobia", there is/are no example(s) I can find in the movie. This isn't a move that's about, or references any members of the transgendered community. Because that's true, it makes absolutely no difference whether/not I have been on the "receiving end of transphobia". It also makes no difference whether/not I am cis-gendered.

It's my opinion that you're bandwagoning (jumping on the "I support the transgendered community" train) without having sufficient knowledge of the community's issues, or who they really are.