Mrs. Doubtfire is gonna get protested — Page 3

DiscoCrows said: "I agree with this and think a lot of it comes down to creative intentions and context- and I do agree that Doubtfire is better positioned to handle this through a PR lens. That being said, I’d argue that maybe the viability of the two roles is the opposite of what you say. Yeah, one is a narcissist actor and one is a dad trying to connect with his kids- but when looked at through the characters’journeysas a whole, I think the big point of Tootsie is that Michael Dorsey is an a**hole for doing what he did- and low and behold at the end of the show, his career and personal relationshipsstill comes crashing down around him. I never understood most of the issues people had with this show simply because, for all the cross-dressing and consequentialexploitation that Michael participates in, the point is that you know he’s an awful person from square one and never ends up walking away having gained what he thought he would, or wanted to gainfrom it by the end of the show. With Doubtfire… I feel like criticismsmight be a bit more warrantedif Daniel walks away from having crossdressed and exploited people by way of thatonly to be rewarded for it. I saw Tootsie and thought it was great and funny,have yet to see Doubtfire so unless it’sreframed it and is more consequential I’m not sure how I feel about it in contrast to Tootsie."

I wouldn't say Daniel is rewarded but he does ultimately get what he's after - getting to spend more time with his kids. It's very clear that there WERE consequences - after he's "discovered" he goes to court again and his custody is reduced to one hour per week of supervised visitation and there's a ballad between him and the oldest daughter which I thought was one of the strongest (and most emotional) numbers in the show. In the end, it's only because his wife agrees that the kids him that he gets to spend time with them (she hires him, as himself, to take care of them after school).

That said, I'm not sure how that would be rewritten to be more consequential, because to change the ending would be to take him away from the kids as the judge suggested, which I also don't think would sit well with an audience.

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "But ya gotta ask yourself, are you a cis person defending it when you're not on the receiving end of transphobia?"

"It's really interesting to not hear anyone say at the very least. [...] It's okay to not get this defensive and recognize something as a conversation."

You told me not to say anything. Now you want me to say something? If you just wanted people to reinforce your POV, that's not a conversation. Most people are cis. If it's not our place to speak, I don't know why you're soliciting opinions here. 

(I'm not pro or against Mrs. Doubtfire, not having seen it. I just don't get the point of this thread.)

GiantsInTheSky2 said: "Mrs. Doubtfire isn’t transphobic and neither is the art form of drag. There’s a LOT of nuance on these topics, but I think anyone with common sense can decipher between legitimate, serious transphobia and things that play with the topic or idea of gender politics. Highly recommend the documentary on Netflix “Disclosure” - fascinating analysis on this very topic, and it inspired a lot of different conversations with friends regarding issues they brought up.

It’s really difficult to hear people get upset about things like this because (in my opinion) it dilutes the message and the movement. People aren’t being murdered, abused, or harassed because of a Robin Williams comedy where he dresses in old lady drag."

Agreed.  Let me ask;  were people being murdered, abused, or harassed because of a Dustin Hoffman comedy where he dresses like a ugly jersey woman? 

Updated On: 9/20/21 at 08:09 PM

Sutton Ross said: "Musical comedies are delightful. I love them so much. The full house at Tootsie had a great time when I saw it, laughter and full applause. It was considered a flop of course and maybe this will be too, but let people enjoy what they enjoy and resist the urge to assume something will happen and sh*t all over it. Thank you. "

That’s how I felt about Gettin’ The Band Back Together! Musical comedy, the audience clearly enjoyed it, but definitely flopped. I enjoyed it both times I saw it :) 

I'm a millennial who agrees with all those so-called Trump loving boomers on this thread (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

It's a musical comedy. Maybe not a good one. But a musical comedy. If you don't want to support it because you perceive it for being anti-trans, then don't. But don't tell others what they should or shouldn't enjoy.

@Broadway61004 

I agree with everything you said, but I don't think it's particularly applicable to here. I don't think the main complaint about Tootsie's transphobia has anything to do with whether or not the show condones Michael's actions. The idea isn't that Michael himself is transphobic as a person, so much as the story is transphobic in the way it frames and utilizes that plot component. 

Unfortunately, in the process of this short exchange -- in which you and I are in total agreement -- we've already added more straw-man fuel to the bad-faith dumpster fire that is this thread. Mixing metaphors I know, but they all feel pretty applicable. 

Updated On: 9/20/21 at 11:19 PM

@Giants.- thank you, and so far I actually think you're the only person in this thread to raise an actual, reasoned counter-argument to this question. 

You raise good points, and like you said in your earlier post, it is extremely nuanced and complicated. And I think it gets into what I was also also saying before about how the queer community is not a monolith. I have seen arguments about drag being transphobic, and I'm no expert on it, but a majority of the perspectives I've heard on the topic seem to agree that the context of drag culture is so steeped in radical free-expression for queer people, and that it's first and foremost a force for gender empowerment. And while I can't speak for everyone, it's my anecdotal observation that more and more trans people are being drawn to drag performance culture - not because they're being conflated (there is still, of course, a big difference between being trans and being a drag queen), but because drag culture is a such a powerful form of protest against gender norms and binaries. 

As for Tootsie, again I think you raise good points. I actually think Tootsie is kind of a grey area, partly for the reasons you mentioned. I used it as an example earlier because it was mentioned in the thread, and I was arguing more with that specific type of reasoning for dismissing the criticism of transphobia. But I do agree there is a case for saying it (especially the musical) isn't necessarily transphobic in its execution. 

I think it's a fair point to say that, if a story makes a very clear delineation between these two categories, it won't be offensive. Tootsie certainly makes no effort to hide the fact that Michael is a man disguising as a woman, and can in no way be mistaken for a trans woman on a literal plot level. And a single stray reference to trans people in musical does...I guess...serve to emphasize that point even more. 

I think where the issue comes in is, again, just examining how we're framing the departure from gender norms. It's not necessarily that the audience might think that Michael is trans, and then conclude therefore that trans women are dangerous. But if we're utilizing the departure from gender norms as something to be laughed AT and/or feared from an audience perspective, that mindset can then easily bleed into the societal images of trans people. 

Hope that's making sense. In all honesty, my brain started to fry a bit as I reached the end of writing that. It's a complicated issue, and I need to go to bed lol 

Updated On: 9/21/21 at 12:13 AM

In the nicest way possible, the conversations that are happening here are egregiously unnecessary. Anybody who would ever see this show and be offended is clearly looking to be offended by something. This doesn't need to be looked at with a magnifying glass.  

SouthernCakes said: "Tootsie was a cis gendered (white) man dressing up as a woman to take a job away from a cis woman. So yes, I can see the outrage in today’s eyes. (Great book though, shame regional theaters won’t be touching this title). But Doubtfire isn’t that. He’s getting his family back, and not really screwing anyone over in the meantime. "

…you’re kidding right?? The whole premise is him lying to his family about who he is!! He’s lying to them from the very beginning when he first decides to become Mrs. Doubtfire.