Mrs. Doubtfire is gonna get protested- Page 3

[MattieIce2018]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 1:47pm

DiscoCrows said: "I agree with this and think a lot of it comes down to creative intentions and context- and I do agree that Doubtfire is better positioned to handle this through a PR lens. That being said, I’d argue that maybe the viability of the two roles is the opposite of what you say. Yeah, one is a narcissist actor and one is a dad trying to connect with his kids- but when looked at through the characters’journeysas a whole, I think the big point of Tootsie is that Michael Dorsey is an a**hole for doing what he did- and low and behold at the end of the show, his career and personal relationshipsstill comes crashing down around him. I never understood most of the issues people had with this show simply because, for all the cross-dressing and consequentialexploitation that Michael participates in, the point is that you know he’s an awful person from square one and never ends up walking away having gained what he thought he would, or wanted to gainfrom it by the end of the show. With Doubtfire… I feel like criticismsmight be a bit more warrantedif Daniel walks away from having crossdressed and exploited people by way of thatonly to be rewarded for it. I saw Tootsie and thought it was great and funny,have yet to see Doubtfire so unless it’sreframed it and is more consequential I’m not sure how I feel about it in contrast to Tootsie."

I wouldn't say Daniel is rewarded but he does ultimately get what he's after - getting to spend more time with his kids. It's very clear that there WERE consequences - after he's "discovered" he goes to court again and his custody is reduced to one hour per week of supervised visitation and there's a ballad between him and the oldest daughter which I thought was one of the strongest (and most emotional) numbers in the show. In the end, it's only because his wife agrees that the kids him that he gets to spend time with them (she hires him, as himself, to take care of them after school).

That said, I'm not sure how that would be rewritten to be more consequential, because to change the ending would be to take him away from the kids as the judge suggested, which I also don't think would sit well with an audience.

[cwilliams]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 1:59pm

what doesnt get protested? This show isnt anti trans

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 2:42pm

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "But ya gotta ask yourself, are you a cis person defending it when you're not on the receiving end of transphobia?"

"It's really interesting to not hear anyone say at the very least. [...] It's okay to not get this defensive and recognize something as a conversation."

You told me not to say anything. Now you want me to say something? If you just wanted people to reinforce your POV, that's not a conversation. Most people are cis. If it's not our place to speak, I don't know why you're soliciting opinions here. 

(I'm not pro or against Mrs. Doubtfire, not having seen it. I just don't get the point of this thread.)

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 2:45pm

It had like what, three previews before the shutdown? I don't enough people have seen the Broadway version to claim any sort of expertise on what they'd have done to do it for previews, and now a year and a half later, to cry foul and let loose the protestors. Unless the OP is planning one to start it going?

[ACL2006]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 2:56pm

Unless this got a complete overhaul during the shutdown, this likely will close in January. Terrible material.

[sparksatmidnight]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 6:29pm

I can't believe people from notorious snarky board like BroadwayWorld would fall for such cheap trolling attempt

[LightsOut90]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 6:46pm

jfc get over it

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 6:49pm

Mrs. Doubtfire isn’t transphobic and neither is the art form of drag. There’s a LOT of nuance on these topics, but I think anyone with common sense can decipher between legitimate, serious transphobia and things that play with the topic or idea of gender politics. Highly recommend the documentary on Netflix “Disclosure” - fascinating analysis on this very topic, and it inspired a lot of different conversations with friends regarding issues they brought up.

It’s really difficult to hear people get upset about things like this because (in my opinion) it dilutes the message and the movement. People aren’t being murdered, abused, or harassed because of a Robin Williams comedy where he dresses in old lady drag.

[Papi2013]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 8:09pm

GiantsInTheSky2 said: "Mrs. Doubtfire isn’t transphobic and neither is the art form of drag. There’s a LOT of nuance on these topics, but I think anyone with common sense can decipher between legitimate, serious transphobia and things that play with the topic or idea of gender politics. Highly recommend the documentary on Netflix “Disclosure” - fascinating analysis on this very topic, and it inspired a lot of different conversations with friends regarding issues they brought up.

It’s really difficult to hear people get upset about things like this because (in my opinion) it dilutes the message and the movement. People aren’t being murdered, abused, or harassed because of a Robin Williams comedy where he dresses in old lady drag."

Agreed.  Let me ask;  were people being murdered, abused, or harassed because of a Dustin Hoffman comedy where he dresses like a ugly jersey woman? 

Updated On: 9/20/21 at 08:09 PM

[JBroadway]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 8:38pm

As I stated en my earlier post, I'm not convinced either way that Doubtfire is transphobic or not, because I think it depends on how its done, and I haven't seen it. 

But people using "it's not as bad as trans people getting murdered" or "it's not openly anti-trans" as excuses - yikes. This "just be thankful it isn't worse" line of logic is a textbook form of manipulative gaslighting. Things can still be problematic and not be murder. Things can cause harm and not be murder. This kind of deflective logic has been used throughout history to get marginalized groups to stop fighting for fair treatment.

No, trans people were not murdered specifically because of Tootsie in particular. But trans women in real life are degraded and traumatized by being seen as a "man in a dress" punchline. And trans women in real life are degraded and yes, even murdered, because people see them as men who pose a risk of "invading" womens' spaces. And these ideas can be re-enforced by mainstream media. Even media that does not appear to be "anti-trans" on the surface. Are these individual pieces of media at fault for these women's murders? Should we put the burden of murder on these artists? No. But that's not an excuse to just indiscriminately ignore the big picture of how these things can accumulate into real-life harm. 

EDIT - and once again, to make things absolutely clear: I am not trying to tell anyone on this board that they aren't ALLOWED to say these things. I'm expressing the reasons why I personally believe that comments like this are harmful and disrespectful. You are allowed to say these things, and I am allowed to respond. 

Updated On: 9/20/21 at 08:38 PM

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 8:52pm

Sutton Ross said: "Musical comedies are delightful. I love them so much. The full house at Tootsie had a great time when I saw it, laughter and full applause. It was considered a flop of course and maybe this will be too, but let people enjoy what they enjoy and resist the urge to assume something will happen and sh*t all over it. Thank you. "

That’s how I felt about Gettin’ The Band Back Together! Musical comedy, the audience clearly enjoyed it, but definitely flopped. I enjoyed it both times I saw it :) 

[Broadway61004]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 9:34pm

JBroadway said: "As I stated en my earlier post, I'm not convinced either way that Doubtfire is transphobic or not, because I think it depends on how its done, and I haven't seen it.

But people using "it's not as bad as trans people getting murdered" or "it's not openly anti-trans" as excuses - yikes.This "just be thankful it isn't worse" line of logic is atextbook form of manipulative gaslighting. Things can still be problematic and not be murder. Things can cause harm and not be murder. This kind of deflectivelogic has been used throughout history to get marginalized groups to stop fighting for fair treatment.

No,trans people were not murdered specifically because of Tootsie in particular. But trans women in real life are degraded and traumatized by being seen as a "man in a dress" punchline. And trans women in real life are degraded and yes,even murdered, because people see them as men who pose a risk of "invading" womens' spaces. And these ideas can be re-enforced by mainstream media. Even media that does not appear to be "anti-trans" on the surface. Are these individual pieces of media at fault for these women's murders? Should we put the burden of murder on these artists? No. But that's not an excuse to just indiscriminately ignore the big picture of how these things can accumulate into real-life harm.

EDIT - and once again, to make things absolutely clear: I am not trying to tell anyone on this board that they aren't ALLOWED to say these things.I'm expressing the reasons why I personally believe that comments like this are harmful and disrespectful. You are allowed to say these things, and I am allowed to respond."

I agree with what you say here about how shows can sometimes whether intentionally or not reinforce some of these stereotypes which can of course be harmful.  But I also think a general issue is that people aren't differentiating between what a show depicts and what it condones.  In Tootsie, for example, yes, what Michael does certainly can be viewed as transphobic.  But does that mean the show is encouraging what he does just because they depict it?  I'd argue the opposite, as everything has gone wrong for him by the end and he's clearly seen that what he did was wrong.  Dear Evan Hansen has obviously gotten a lot of controversy for not "punishing" Evan enough, but does that mean the show is saying what he did was okay?  Is Sweeney Todd saying it's okay to chop people up into meat pies just because they do it onstage?  That's of course an extreme example, but my point is that bad or wrong things have been depicted onstage for years.  That doesn't necessarily mean the shows that depict them are saying "this is okay".  And that's a line that seems to have become blurred in a lot of people's minds today.  That's not at all to say people can't say Tootsie or Doubtfire are transphobic and that the trans community can't respond by disliking it and saying it's offensive.  But just that it's important to remember there's a huge difference between characters being transphobic and productions being transphobic.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 10:59pm

Tootsie was a cis gendered (white) man dressing up as a woman to take a job away from a cis woman. So yes, I can see the outrage in today’s eyes. (Great book though, shame regional theaters won’t be touching this title). But Doubtfire isn’t that. He’s getting his family back, and not really screwing anyone over in the meantime.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 11:05pm

Yeah how dare someone tell a story about someone taking a job away from someone else. ONLY PURE AS THE DRIVEN SNOW 100% ETHICAL STORIES ARE ALLOWED TO BE TOLD NOW AND DONT EVEN THINK ABOUT LOOKING INTO THE ACTUAL MEANING OF WHAT A FLAWED CHARACTER CAN LEARN BECAUSE IT TAKES AWAY FROM ALL THAT NEEDED OUTRAGE RAAAAWR.

[Mr. Wormwood]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 11:11pm

I'm a millennial who agrees with all those so-called Trump loving boomers on this thread (yes, I'm being sarcastic).

It's a musical comedy. Maybe not a good one. But a musical comedy. If you don't want to support it because you perceive it for being anti-trans, then don't. But don't tell others what they should or shouldn't enjoy.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 11:12pm

hearthemsing22 said: "Sutton Ross said: "Musical comedies are delightful. I love them so much. The full house at Tootsie had a great time when I saw it, laughter and full applause. It was considered a flop of course and maybe this will be too, but let people enjoy what they enjoy and resist the urge to assume something will happen and sh*t all over it. Thank you. "

That’s how I felt about Gettin’ The Band Back Together! Musical comedy, the audience clearly enjoyed it, but definitely flopped. I enjoyed it both times I saw it :)"

I really enjoyed Gettin' The Band Back Together also.  Thought it was alot of fun.  My only regret was the lead was out when I saw it.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 11:19pm

@Broadway61004 

I agree with everything you said, but I don't think it's particularly applicable to here. I don't think the main complaint about Tootsie's transphobia has anything to do with whether or not the show condones Michael's actions. The idea isn't that Michael himself is transphobic as a person, so much as the story is transphobic in the way it frames and utilizes that plot component. 

Unfortunately, in the process of this short exchange -- in which you and I are in total agreement -- we've already added more straw-man fuel to the bad-faith dumpster fire that is this thread. Mixing metaphors I know, but they all feel pretty applicable. 

Updated On: 9/20/21 at 11:19 PM

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 9/20/21 at 11:36pm

JBroadway - thank you for responding/adding your voice to the discussion.

You’re absolutely right in what you’ve said regarding gaslighting and the sort ‘brushing aside’ impact that the comments I made can have. While that’s certainly not my intent, I acknowledge that I didn’t use my words properly. I could go back and edit the post, but it’s already been said, so I’ll leave it as is.

What I would like to bring up is - do we really think these shows in and of themselves are transphobic if they don’t actually have anything to do with being transgender? If they make a certain joke or reference, absolutely…but if it’s just a man in a dress, does that make the story about a man in DRAG or a man mocking trans people?

It reminds me of the (truly awful person but fascinating media topic) Caitlyn Jenner reality show. She basically had a whole panel of trans activists and public figures around her at all times explaining how everything she said and did was hurtful to the cause and actually offensive and restrictive of their rights. I was in full agreement with everything they said - until there was an episode featuring a drag performance at a club, if I’m remembering correctly. Multiple people on the show had very strong issues with drag in and of itself, because drag plays with, parodies, exaggerates, and can make fun of gender, while gender is a really serious topic for trans people. Those individuals saw drag as being transphobic.

Does that mean that it just is now? Can we not enjoy RuPaul’s Drag Race, or performers at our local establishments because some people take issue with it? That’s what I’m trying to get at. Doubtfire doesn’t go anywhere near the topic of trans identities, but because it’s a man dressing as a woman and that’s what bigots see trans people as, now Doubtfire is transphobic? The logic just doesn’t add up.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 12:13am

@Giants.- thank you, and so far I actually think you're the only person in this thread to raise an actual, reasoned counter-argument to this question. 

You raise good points, and like you said in your earlier post, it is extremely nuanced and complicated. And I think it gets into what I was also also saying before about how the queer community is not a monolith. I have seen arguments about drag being transphobic, and I'm no expert on it, but a majority of the perspectives I've heard on the topic seem to agree that the context of drag culture is so steeped in radical free-expression for queer people, and that it's first and foremost a force for gender empowerment. And while I can't speak for everyone, it's my anecdotal observation that more and more trans people are being drawn to drag performance culture - not because they're being conflated (there is still, of course, a big difference between being trans and being a drag queen), but because drag culture is a such a powerful form of protest against gender norms and binaries. 

As for Tootsie, again I think you raise good points. I actually think Tootsie is kind of a grey area, partly for the reasons you mentioned. I used it as an example earlier because it was mentioned in the thread, and I was arguing more with that specific type of reasoning for dismissing the criticism of transphobia. But I do agree there is a case for saying it (especially the musical) isn't necessarily transphobic in its execution. 

I think it's a fair point to say that, if a story makes a very clear delineation between these two categories, it won't be offensive. Tootsie certainly makes no effort to hide the fact that Michael is a man disguising as a woman, and can in no way be mistaken for a trans woman on a literal plot level. And a single stray reference to trans people in musical does...I guess...serve to emphasize that point even more. 

I think where the issue comes in is, again, just examining how we're framing the departure from gender norms. It's not necessarily that the audience might think that Michael is trans, and then conclude therefore that trans women are dangerous. But if we're utilizing the departure from gender norms as something to be laughed AT and/or feared from an audience perspective, that mindset can then easily bleed into the societal images of trans people. 

Hope that's making sense. In all honesty, my brain started to fry a bit as I reached the end of writing that. It's a complicated issue, and I need to go to bed lol 

Updated On: 9/21/21 at 12:13 AM

[uncageg]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 12:15am

rattleNwoolypenguin said: "I'm telling ya it's coming and I think it's warranted.

People in the trans community were furious about Tootsie and there's a growing contingency of people who are very upset this is still coming.

I do love the classic 90s film cause Robin's performance but is has a sizable amount of transphobia in it.

We're just truly in a different era and "straight men crossdressing to get away with something" is increasingly feeling yikesy.

And yes before people sound off on me about "how it's actually a heartfelt story about divorce and a guy who wants to be with his kids" Yes all this I know- I am someone who loved the movie.

But ya gotta ask yourself, are you a cis person defending it when you're not on the receiving end of transphobia?

Some things just stop holding up as time goes on no matter how you defend intention"

 

So here is a solution for you. Don't go see the show and you won't be offended. And don't worry about what those of us think that do see it. We are mature enough to know that the show is not being transphobic.  There, problem solved.

Push all this energy towards Texas and Marjorie Taylor Greene.  They are doing more damage to the trans community than a Broadway show.

 

Updated On: 9/21/21 at 12:15 AM

[unclevictor]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 12:33am

Omg the horse is dead. It doesn’t need to be beaten anymore.

[SmoothLover]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 12:59am

Bill Maher is doing a panel on the protest this coming Friday on HBO.

[soulmistin]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 1:04am

In the nicest way possible, the conversations that are happening here are egregiously unnecessary. Anybody who would ever see this show and be offended is clearly looking to be offended by something. This doesn't need to be looked at with a magnifying glass.  

[MCW1227]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 6:40am

Seriously?? This is what you are protesting in a country where so much is going on that is dangerous and vile?  Please get a life!!

[hearthemsing22]

Posted: 9/21/21 at 9:27am

SouthernCakes said: "Tootsie was a cis gendered (white) man dressing up as a woman to take a job away from a cis woman. So yes, I can see the outrage in today’s eyes. (Great book though, shame regional theaters won’t be touching this title). But Doubtfire isn’t that. He’s getting his family back, and not really screwing anyone over in the meantime. "

…you’re kidding right?? The whole premise is him lying to his family about who he is!! He’s lying to them from the very beginning when he first decides to become Mrs. Doubtfire.