Straight men playing gay men- Page 3

[Oak2]

Posted: 6/5/18 at 10:10pm

Serious question tangentially related because it had me thinking, because it's similar to sexuality and race in terms of "something you're born with/can't control and can't put on/off"  as said previously - if you believe that only gay actors should play gay characters, do you also believe then that only actors with mental disabilities should play characters with mental disabilities? Including stuff such as autism/Asperger's/etc. Because I kind of get what you're coming from in that as an autistic person with anxiety I feel uncomfortable sometimes in seeing actors play characters who are either supposed to be autistic or in some kind of "vague anxiety/mental disorder that can be equated to be on the autistic spectrum), especially in that I feel like they're making them out to be a joke/not liking how the audience is reacting to that. I'd much rather it be an actor who actually has the disorder rather than a neurotypical actor portraying it, but that's just a personal thing, and I'm sure there are some NT actors who could pull it off well enough as to not seem uncomfortable.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 3:02am

Brokeback Mountain with two openly gay actors would have been too dangerous. Not dangerous in the violent sense but in the insidious promotion of homosexuality. When audiences are watching straight actors by gay they are not thinking about sex, they are safe in the knowledge the actor is straight when they watch gay actors that’s all they will see if producers permit them to see. 

There’s a systematic system of oppression while almost eradicated still has 

some fight left and perople should be able to recognise that and how it operates. 

 

But, that is how it works- at first- as the public warms up to the idea of gay men in love- stragtht actor are used so as not to be too outwardly threatening to the masses- and the story of two gay men in love was acceptable on those terms. Fine for that point in history.

     Fast forward to 2018- Gay marriage has been upheld by the Supreme c/ourt- and the LBGTQ community is more mainstream than ever. Yes, we want it all- and now- but it does not always work that way, Acceptance is sometimes incremental- and is a slow and painful process. And let's came it- if Trump and Pence and the Evangelicals could have their way- we would lose every right and be totally marginalized as before. But, I do not see that in the cards- though nothing is impossible- and if we do morph into a fascist dictatorship all bets are off for sexual freedom. 

Regardless, things are much better now for our commnity- and social freedoms are still making progress- though we have backtracked as a society in so many other areas unfortunately. Anyway, history marches on and we will always have to fight for our rights and not take them for granted. Hamilton was a milestone for diversity- and minded gay stories with gay characters- Torch Song with Michael Urie coming soon as one thing to look forward to- are being told. And Fun Home won Best Musical not so long ago.

[MrsSallyAdams]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 9:54am

I'm fine with straight actors playing LGB+ roles and LGB+ actors playing straight roles.

What I'm not okay with are producers and casting directors telling actors to stay in the closet and refusing to cast actors who are out. Hollywood's the worst offender. Theater and television have made great progress but still have a ways to go.

http://threepanelmusicals.blogspot.com/2018/06/lgbtq-tropes-in-musical-theater.html

Updated On: 6/6/18 at 09:54 AM

[Valentina3]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 11:59am

Lee Pace said it very well in the recent NYTimes profile - it's 2018 and we still don't know what impact an actor's coming out will have in Hollywood. I think stage is a lot more forgiving. Sean Hayes' casting in Promises Promises was difficult for me to see not because of his sexuality, but visible lack of chemistry with Kristin (they frankly came off as brother-sister, but that's a topic which has been discussed to death here). NPH plays a over-sexed straight guy in HIMYM and plays it well. Andrew Garfield was somewhat underwhelming for me as Prior Walter (because of my expectations of that character which are very very high) but I don't think anyone should have the audacity to say he was stunt cast in that role - he is giving his everything on stage in that role and I think he will deserve the Tony if he wins. I think it's fair for LGBT+ community to want representation and expect monumental roles be played by members of the community, but we honestly have so many bigger fights to fight that this feels miniscule in comparison. I'd much rather get more actual gay/lesbian/trans characters and stories on screen and stage first.

[Gizmo6]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 1:33pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "
Brokeback Mountain with two openly gay actors would have been too dangerous. Not dangerous in the violent sense but in the insidious promotion of homosexuality. When audiences are watching straight actors by gay they are not thinking about sex, they are safe in the knowledge the actor is straightwhen they watch gay actors that’s all they will see if producers permitthem to see.

There’s a systematic system of oppression while almost eradicated still has

some fight left and perople should be able to recognise that and how it operates.



But, that is how it works- at first- as the public warms up to the idea of gay men in love- stragtht actor are used so as not to be too outwardly threatening to the masses- and the story of two gay men in love was acceptable on those terms. Fine for that point in history.

Fast forward to 2018- Gay marriage has been upheld by the Supreme c/ourt- and the LBGTQ community is more mainstream than ever. Yes, we want it all- and now- but it does not always work that way, Acceptance is sometimes incremental- and is a slow and painful process. And let's came it- if Trump and Pence and the Evangelicals could have their way- we would lose every right and be totally marginalized as before. But, I do not see that in the cards- though nothing is impossible- and if we do morph into a fascist dictatorship all bets are off for sexual freedom.

Regardless, things are much better now for our commnity- and social freedoms are still making progress- though we have backtracked as a society in so many other areas unfortunately. Anyway, history marches on and we will always have to fight for our rights and not take them for granted. Hamilton was a milestone for diversity- and minded gay stories with gay characters- Torch Song with Michael Urie coming soon as one thing to look forward to-are being told. And Fun Home won Best Musical not so long ago."

I agree that we have come a long way and the argument of wanting it all now but I think in near 50 years since Stonewall that Boys in the Band with openly gay stars is such a landmark is telling. 

I didn't like Garfield, I didn't buy it. It's just my opinion, I see femme gay male actors excluded from roles all the time, written off by drama teachers up and down the country and so I find that frustrating. On the plus side we do get fantastic fringe performers and performances. 

I don't want gay roles for gay actors but my issue is the way society responds to straight men playing gay roles. I look forward to a future of blind casting but as you said we can't have everything right now. 

[binau]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:03pm

"Gay face". LOL. What will they think of next. This is RIDICULOUS. And actually offensive that someone is comparing this to the purpose and execution of Black Face. I am so frustrated at the sloppy thinking that has infected our communities. 

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:16pm

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "Like all of a sudden, he puts his gay mask on and the portrayal is as deep as putting a mask on. The exaggerations get a little bit more flamboyant and the wrists get a little more limp and the voice goes up an octave. Sometimes it's subtle but it's there."

I think this is exactly what the author is referring to with regard to Andrew Garfield - not a straight man playing a gay role per se, but a straight man affecting stereotypical mannerisms to do so. I can see his point, but I also think Andrew Garfield is doing a great job playing Prior Walter and that's all that matters to me as an audience member.

Updated On: 6/6/18 at 02:16 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:20pm

Dave28282 said: "We could argue that a gay person acting stereotypically heterosexual is "Straight face" then."

There's no such thing, though. There might be a stereotypical jock or frat boy or something, but that's a specific subculture. Straight is simply the default in our culture and is not marked by any particular mannerisms. But I'm sure you realize this.

[JudyDenmark]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:22pm

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "Like all of a sudden, he puts his gay mask on and the portrayal is as deep as putting a mask on. The exaggerations get a little bit more flamboyant and the wrists get a little more limp and the voice goes up an octave. Sometimes it's subtle but it's there."

Honest question: if it was a gay actor making these choices to play Prior Walter - a gay actor who maybe wasn’t particularly flamboyant in his real life, but who felt that that is how this specific character would act - is that more ok? Is it just because the actor is straight, or is it the choices themselves that are bothersome? (I mean, I feel like it’s worth pointing out that there are plenty of gay men who do have those exaggerated mannerisms in real life... is it a stereotyped performance when someone is choosing to play a character like that who could easily be an over-the-top real person?)

 

Updated On: 6/6/18 at 02:22 PM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:28pm

Another honest question (or four): Does Prior Walter have to have certain mannerisms that one might call stereotypical? Is it necessary for the story that he have them? Is it in the text? If so, isn't Tony Kushner kind of at fault for making his main character so stereotypical?

[Kad]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:28pm

While I am more neutral on straight actors playing queer roles, I know plenty of people who are not and I think dismissing their concerns as ridiculous is at best ignorant of the extremely valid historical reasons they may feel that way.

 

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:33pm

But...you cannot play Prior Walter successfully without affecting the characteristics of a flamboyant gay men who is a former drag queen.  Andrew Garfield is doing his job...I just disagree with the majority that he's doing it well.  I think he's an actor of great intelligence with a deep well of emotional recall at his disposal.  But that quality one needs to play Prior...the innate queeny-ness that is specific to this period.  Prior would have been 15 years old when Stonewall happened.  His coming-of-age as a sexual being would be formed by the activism of the gay liberation movement.  He knew what condom-free f*cking was.  He was a drag queen.  All those things make Prior who Prior is.  And every actor in a major production I've seen since Spinella (Borle, Kirk and Garfield) simply hasn't had that in their performances.  It's 24 years later, but I can STILL remember the heartbreak he brought to the line 'Oh this is going to be so much worse than I imagined' followed directly by the most withering, dismissive read-for-filth 'F*ck you, you little sh*tbag.' in his scene with Louis in Perestroika.  There was no sentimentality in Spinella's Prior.  And the one difference between Spinella and the others is that Spinella simply was a queen.  The others aped it.  None of them were bad.  All are capable, smart actors.  But each performance read false to me in ways that, frankly, broke my heart.  This is our greatest gay role...and it's a raging queen.  Yes I want to see gay men get to portray it. 

Oh...and for those who want an idea of what 'pinkface' is (gay face is something different, for God's sake!) take a look at Chris Sarandon in Dog Day Afternoon and William Hurt in Kiss of the Spiderwoman.  Both nommed for Oscars, with Hurt winning.  

[gypsy101]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 2:38pm

seriously you guys, gay face is already a thing. it’s the face of those guys that are so gay that you can tell just from seeing their face. it’s one of those things that’s hard to define in words. Frankie Grande? gay face. Chris Colfer? gay face.

i do agree that gay men too often are passed over for playing gay characters by straight men and it’s offensive, especially because it’s very rare the reverse is true.

[GiantsInTheSky2]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 3:22pm

I have never had a problem with straight men playing gay characters, or cis people playing trans characters, etc - because I think the hurdle we are currently getting over is just having these stories represented in mainstream media and performance. As long as the role is executed properly and is being truly represented, that's what I think is an important first step. The next one being that we make sure LGBT+ actors are getting roles. But, that's just me.

Also, gayface is absolutely a thing, however not a bad one.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 3:31pm

kdogg36 said: "Another honest question (or four): Does Prior Walter have to have certain mannerisms that one might call stereotypical? Is it necessary for the story that he have them? Is it in the text? If so, isn't Tony Kushner kind of at fault for making his main character so stereotypical?"

There was a poster on here back in the day named Margo Channing who has since gone on to whatever comes next after we depart this earth.  He was a deeply smart, funny, wonderful man.  There were a number of threads where Angels was discussed, and Tony Kushner as well.  I think this was around Caroline, or Change.  Margo posited that what Kushner did in both Angles and Caroline is take well known, overused character tropes (the sissy and the mammy) and turned them entirely on their heads.  He demands that we understand that the sissy is not only the hero, but is also divine (in the grand religious sense).  Caroline is another topic for another thread, but he took this supposedly nurturing, happy to work for the white folk stock character and exposed her bitterness, resentment and anger.  Kushner at fault?  That's absurd.  That was the point.  And so if you remove what some might call 'stereotypical' qualities, the subversion the character represents is muted...or even done away with completely.  Our hero is a screaming queen who fights for every last moment of his life.  And that is exactly as it should be.  

[perfectliar]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 3:41pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "There was a poster on here back in the day named Margo Channing who has since gone on to whatever comes next after we depart this earth. He was a deeply smart, funny, wonderful man."

Off-topic for a moment: I loved Margo and his posts. I guess it never even crossed my mind that his departure from these boards also meant he had departed from this plane. How sad, but thank you Robbie for confirming that, as I have sporadically wondered what happened to him.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 3:41pm

GiantsInTheSky2 said: "I have never had a problem with straight men playing gay characters, or cis people playing trans characters, etc - because I think the hurdle we are currently getting over is just having these stories represented in mainstream media and performance. As long as the role is executed properly and is being truly represented, that's what I think is an important first step. The next one being that we make sure LGBT+ actors are getting roles. But, that's just me.

Also, gayface is absolutely a thing, however not a bad one."

Over the last 30 years, 11 straight-identified actors have won Oscars for playing gay roles.  In that same time, 2 out LGBT actors have been nominated for playing gay roles.  Neither have won (with Ian McKellan losing to that babbling baboon of an Italian).  They've had enough.  

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 4:16pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "Over the last 30 years, 11 straight-identified actors have won Oscars for playing gay roles. In that same time, 2 out LGBT actors have been nominated for playing gay roles. Neither have won (with Ian McKellan losing to that babbling baboon of an Italian). They've had enough."

Because if we've learned anything, it is that producers have since decided that authenticity is way more important than a box office name and its ability to generate the requisite financing to get a movie made.

How many of these 13 nominations would even be in movies that were made were it not for their marquee name being attached?

[raddersons]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 4:20pm

When it comes to theater, gay actors to tend to play straight men all the time , so I don't really have much of a problem with the reverse.

Hollywood however, is a totally different story.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 4:27pm

gypsy101 said: "seriously you guys, gay face is already a thing. it’s the face of those guys that are so gay that you can tell just from seeing their face. it’s one of those things that’s hard to define in words. Frankie Grande? gay face. Chris Colfer? gay face.

So right.  The term has been around for years.

[ArtMan]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 4:27pm

double post
 

Updated On: 6/6/18 at 04:27 PM

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 4:30pm

There's always a reason.  There's always a reason why these roles must be played by straight people.  These self-perpetuating reasons that we're told we must accept because that is the way it is. 

God...I remember being taken aside in acting school and being told, 'You should really tone it down because you can play straight.  You could have a great career.'  And I thought that was the most amazing thing ever said to me.  I could play straight so...I was talented?  Or I was talented, so I could play straight?  At one particularly activist moment in my life at drama school, I would bring in defiantly gay pieces to audition class and be torn about by both the instructor and my fellow students for 'ghettoizing' myself.  As if choosing to play roles that were LGBT-identified was such a step down from what 'real' actors do.

You can either kick your feet back and explain 'the way it is' (thus perpetuating the way it is), or you can fight against it.  I would much rather fight against it.

It stuns me that people on this board don't understand why it would be important for gay actors to play gay roles.  

[JBC3]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 5:12pm

Garfield is no more flamboyant than any other actor I have seen play Prior. Check the TONY highlights reel of the original and see Spinella go far beyond Garfield in some scenes.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 5:15pm

I saw Spinella.  The difference is that it felt entirely natural coming from Spinella.  It feels put on by Garfield. 

[TexanAddams18]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 5:42pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "I saw Spinella. The difference is that it felt entirely natural coming from Spinella. It feels put on by Garfield."

I thought Garfield gave one of the most truthful, layered, brilliant performances I have ever seen on stage. 

Updated On: 6/6/18 at 05:42 PM