Helen Shaw takes down both BOM and Hamilton on Vulture- Page 2

[AADA81]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 4:00pm

Call_me_jorge said: "I’d rather get a review from a college student than a boomer..."

If that comment was meant to be funny, it wasn't.  If it was meant to be ignorant, you hit the jackpot.

[JSquared2]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 4:33pm

Call_me_jorge said: "To compare with a show like Wicked, where Joe Mantello barely has any other work. When he does it’s almost always a play and it’s only a limited engagement. He’s able to make more time for Wicked, because that’s his only show he has to worry about.
 

Huh??  What a ridiculous statement!  Mantello has been consistently directing 3-4 plays a year on Broadway, not to mention numerous workshops, readings, developmental projects, etc.  Do you really think he spends his days sitting at home counting his WICKED royalties and watching Judge Judy??

 

 

 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 4:43pm

Call_me_jorge said: "I wonder how much of this is due to the lack of involvement from the original creative team.

The creative teams for both shows are off doing other projects and I wouldn’t blame them if they had trouble find the time to return to their respective shows. Casey Nicholaw has like what seems like a million other shows in the pipeline, plus he has 2 other shows currently running on broadway, it was 3 just recently. Robert Lopez has frozen stuff to work on, and well Matt and Trey have South Park. The same goes for the Hamilton creative, who have a billion other projects.

To compare with a show like Wicked, where Joe Mantello barely has any other work. When he does it’s almost always a play and it’s only a limited engagement. He’s able to make more time for Wicked, because that’s his only show he has to worry about.

Resident Directors and associates are great and all, but then again they don’t have the same mind or thought process as the original creatives."

every premise in your post is incorrect. every one.

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 5:02pm

Her BOM comments make it clear she does not understand satire, Let's make sure she never gets her hands on Swift's "A Modest Proposal" because if she thought raping babies to cure AIDS was offensive, just wait until she hears about 18th century British people eating babies.  Yikes!  

[superiska123]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 5:49pm

If black actors have no issue acting in BOM, why is the author offended? I refuse to believe that they are "forced to sell jokes", as the author says...If the show is so violently offensive to black people, why is the show even still running, why are people auditioning for the roles and why aren't people protesting?

Updated On: 12/18/19 at 05:49 PM

[ModernMillie3]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 5:56pm

Trey and Matt have always been equal opportunity offenders. For like 20 years now.

If this author is a young millennial I completely understand her being offended, as they are offended by everything. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:10pm

she is not. That said, her subject here is not something that is informed by one's education. 

[ACL2006]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:29pm

I saw BOM four times in its first year. Thought it was the best muscial comedy I've ever seen. Saw it again a few times later on. The last time I saw the show about three years ago, the energy level was very low. The ensemble, which about half have been there for years or did the tour previously, looked bored. I haven't been back since. Maybe Matt & Trey need to clean house and bring in a brand new cast?

[haterobics]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:41pm

AADA81 said: "They haven't aged particularly well"

Or the reviewer hasn't. Often times, we assume we are a true constant across time, which is not always the case.

[AADA81]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:45pm

ModernMillie3 said: "Trey and Matt have always been equal opportunity offenders. For like 20 years now.

If this author is a young millennial I completely understand her being offended, as they are offended by everything."

It's already been established on this thread that she's not a millennial, but what if she was?  Why are you putting down a whole generation of people because you don't like what this author wrote?  One has nothing to do with the other and your remark about millennials is a cheap shot.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:46pm

superiska123 said: "If black actors have no issue acting in BOM, why is the author offended? "

Actors of color like to work and often comprise to pay the bills. Just because someone delivers the lines, doesn't mean they love the job or agree with the content. Actors are paid to act. Many Asian actors LOATHE Miss Saigon, but they also like to eat so they take the roles.

I agree with many of the author's sentiments. A lot of theatre produced nowadays won't wear well. A lot of it is written for shock value, easy laughs and lacks depth. 

For instance, saw A Doll's House Part 2 on Broadway. Metcalf slayed. Audience howled. Saw it regionally. A few chuckles. Pretty limp. Not the powerhouse it seemed out of the gate. It won't age well. It was one of the most produced plays in the past few years. I don't think that will continue. 

Saw BOM in previews. Cast was on fire, audience was enraptured. I thought it was very funny, and had a good time. Didn't really feel any burning need to see it again. Recently caught the tour. House was half empty and tons of discounts and rush available. Audience was polite. Since it bowed, conversation about comedy has shifted. People are at least beginning to think about what they are laughing at. 

Couldn't get a ticket to Hamilton in NYC for years at an decent price, so I stopped trying. Caught the tour. Overall, meh. The cast was proficient but they weren't delivering the material as preserved on the cast recording. Zeitgeist moment not translating. I think Hamilton is important as a cultural movement more than it is as a good musical. In the future, small theatres will have a hard time finding casts that can do the score justice. Community theatre attempts will fail I fear. 

You're also dealing with the psychological phenomenon that people are compelled to love something they paid a lot for, especially if it is exclusive. Privileged people will say they like something more if came at a premium and is exclusive, often to save face and risk a bruise to the ego. It also is a bragging right. 

 

[superiska123]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:56pm

Bettyboy72, I'd still argue that BOM is by no means the only show for which people of color can audition... Besides, many of my friends who are people of color thought the show was incredibly funny. In addition, I'd say that BOM is purposefully written to be offensive and the whole point is to make the audience feel uncomfortable at the things they are laughing at, Through satire, the show draws attention to actual problems in the world and in the end still spreads positivity... Or at least that's how I see it, it's all a matter of opinion...

[ModernMillie3]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 6:56pm

AADA81 said: "ModernMillie3 said:  If this author is a young millennial I completely understand her being offended, as they are offended by everything."

It's already been established on this thread that she's not a millennial, but what if she was? Why are you putting down a whole generation of people because you don't like what this author wrote? One has nothing to do with the other and your remark about millennials is a cheap shot."

Im sorry you're.....offended.

[suicidalmickeymouse]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 7:09pm

singer234 said: "She’s right. There are WEAK VOCALS in Hamilton that are entirely unacceptable. "

I saw Hamilton Broadway in December 2019 and and the tour in Baltimore this past June and heard outstandingly bad vocals from more than one cast member in each show. I also heard almost no really really good singing from either cast. What’s going on there? 

[AADA81]

Posted: 12/18/19 at 8:15pm

ModernMillie3 said: Im sorry you're.....offended."

Yeah, and I'm not even.....a millennial.

[bear88]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 4:56am

The biggest problem with the article is that Shaw's criticisms are unsurprising and rather pat. Matt Stone and Trey Parker traffic in offend-everyone humor, and so does Book of Mormon. When I finally went back to New York City in 2016 after not seeing a Broadway show in decades, we caught up on popular musicals and saw BOM. Shaw is right that that the musical starts brilliantly and then is hit-and-miss, especially in Africa. I was less bothered by that because, well, I knew who the writers were. It's not a musical I have a particular desire to revisit, but I had a good time. (My daughter probably would agree with Shaw; she thinks "Hello" is fantastic, and thought it went downhill from there.) Would the musical get more criticism if it came out now? I'm sure that's true. 

I saw Hamilton two nights after BOM, with most of the original cast. Shaw's critique is half-hearted, because it's really a critique of the direction of the country since the show's opening, and a lamentation that the show now can't match the often-unique talents of the original cast. It's true that Hamilton is probably one of the best-cast musicals in history and there's simply no one who can match Renee Elise Goldsberry and, especially, Daveed Diggs. (The first act seems to break many of the Lafayettes I've seen since, because the role is tailored to Diggs' ability to speed-rap, and they appear visibly relieved to play Jefferson in the second act. And even then, none has approached Diggs' Jefferson.) Jonathan Groff was a particularly brilliant King George. But I've seen other very strong performers play some of the other roles, especially Hamilton and Burr. The complaints about pricing are very familiar; not wrong, just the same gripes I've heard and read for years. Shoot, I just mentioned to a friend that orchestra seats for Hamilton in San Francisco are $75 now, which surprised her. (She's not really a theater person, doesn't want to pay big bucks, but loves the cast recording.)  

The audience for Hamilton is very white and has been since I first saw it at the Richard Rodgers Theatre. But let's be real. The audience for most shows is very white. The problem for Hamilton is that, despite its top-of-the-box-office status on Broadway, it's not a show that feels like a part of a cultural wave now. Instead, the musical has thrived during a Trump presidency and the daily reminders that the Founding Fathers did a lot of things wrong, including in the Constitution. Thinking about the show makes me feel a bit melancholy, which is all the more depressing considering that it remains a singular artistic achievement. That said, I've still seen it 5 times.

Shaw, unsurprisingly, doesn't approach Sara Holdren's high standards because she doesn't raise critiques or introduce new insights that I haven't read elsewhere or already thought of myself about both musicals. But she's new at the gig. 

[seaweedjstubbs]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 8:36am

superiska123 said: "Bettyboy72, I'd still argue that BOM is by no means the only show for which people of color can audition... Besides, many of my friends who are people of color thought the show was incredibly funny. In addition, I'd say that BOM is purposefully written to be offensive and the whole point is to make the audience feel uncomfortable at the things they are laughing at, Through satire, the show draws attention to actual problems in the world and in the end still spreads positivity... Or at least that's how I see it, it's all a matter of opinion..."

As an actor of color, I admit that when the show first premiered, I didn’t really view the show as problematic. It definitely wasn’t my favorite show, and after watching a bootleg I truly didn’t understand the hype, but I didn’t see it as racist. But as I got older, I started to see the cracks. The problem for me is that once the show moves to Uganda, most of the jokes are at the expense of the Ugandans. I don’t feel comfortable sitting in a theatre listening to a mostly white audience HOWL with laughter at the misery, pain, and stupidity of fictional Africans, no matter how “witty” or “clever” the book and music are. I’m sure people though minstrel shows were witty and clever, too.
 

And to your point about BOM not being the “only show POC can audition for”........well duh. We know. But because the show employs a large number of black actors, sometimes the show seeks US out, not the other way around. Both times I auditioned for the show was because the casting director reached out to me to audition for it. What was I gonna do, say no to auditioning for a long running Broadway show? A show that would provide me with enough money to pay off my student loans within a year? And if I had been cast, do you really think I would’ve turned down my Broadway debut or a the tour which has the best contract to tour on? A lot of actors compromise their morals in order to pay the bills. Those who have the luxury to pick and choose which jobs to take are in rare company. I’m not saying every black person in BOM right now hates their job, but I know for a fact that there are a few who’d probably rather not sing “Hasa Diga Eebowai” every night. I know I wouldn’t.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 8:51am

seaweedjstubbs said: "superiska123 said: "Bettyboy72, I'd still argue that BOM is by no means the only show for which people of color can audition... Besides, many of my friends who are people of color thought the show was incredibly funny. In addition, I'd say that BOM is purposefully written to be offensive and the whole point is to make the audience feel uncomfortable at the things they are laughing at, Through satire, the show draws attention to actual problems in the world and in the end still spreads positivity... Or at least that's how I see it, it's all a matter of opinion..."

As an actor of color, I admit that when the show first premiered, I didn’treally viewthe show as problematic. It definitely wasn’t my favorite show, and after watching a bootleg I truly didn’t understand the hype, but I didn’t see it as racist. But as I got older, I started to see the cracks. The problem for me is that once the show moves to Uganda, most of the jokes are at the expense of the Ugandans. I don’t feel comfortable sitting in a theatre listening to a mostly white audience HOWL with laughter at the misery,pain, and stupidity of fictional Africans, no matter how “witty” or “clever” the book and music are. I’m sure people though minstrel shows were witty and clever, too.


And to your point about BOM not being the “only show POC can audition for”........well duh. We know. But because the show employs a large number of black actors, sometimes the show seeks US out, not the other way around. Both times I auditioned for the show was because the casting director reached out to me to audition for it. What was I gonna do, say no to auditioning for a long running Broadway show? A show that would provide me with enough money to pay off my student loans within a year? And if I had been cast, do you really think I would’ve turned down my Broadway debut or a the tour which has the best contract to tour on? A lot of actors compromise their morals in order to pay the bills. Those who have the luxury to pick and choose which jobs to take are in rare company. I’m not saying every black person in BOM right now hates their job, but I know for a fact that there are a few who’d probably rather not sing “Hasa Diga Eebowai” every night. I know I wouldn’t."

Thank you for sharing these insights Seaweed. I also have spoken to a  few black actors personally who have done the Lion King because it openly hired many black actors, even though it did, and continues to wreak havoc on their bodies. It was a steady, well-paying, respectful job but grueling and they wouldn't do it if they had more opportunities. 

 

[Synecdoche2]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 9:53am

AADA81 said: "Call_me_jorge said: "I’d rather get a review from a college student than a boomer..."

If that comment was meant to be funny, it wasn't. If it was meant to be ignorant, you hit the jackpot."

*you know I had to do it to 'em*

Ok, boomer.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 9:55am

I always thought BoM was overrated. If you're familiar with Matt and Trey's other works a lot of the humor and jokes are rehashed from them. I definitely see the point about the Uganda humor. The only thing that really struck me about the show was that it felt really polished and smooth.

I saw Hamilton very recently (one of the national tours) and I think it's definitely a show that belongs more in the Obama era. It reflects an excitement about our government and country that I just could not share anymore. All I could think about during it was that Hamilton was responsible for the electoral college.

[haterobics]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 10:21am

SporkGoddess said: "I saw Hamilton very recently (one of the national tours) and I think it's definitely a show that belongs more in the Obama era."

Yeah, people rising up together to topple an oppressive leader and declare a trajectory toward a better future... nothing relevant there today.

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 10:50am

Hamilton is my favorite musical. I saw it the first time in the last row of the rear mezzanine (constant knee pain from lack of legroom) in November 2015. It was love at first sight. I’ve seen it 5 more times since (three in Chicago, twice on tour) and while I’ll always cherish my first time seeing it on Broadway with the OBC, I have a deeper, more resonant experience now that I’m more familiar with the story while still being surprised by things I’m just noticing or by different performers’ performances. When I saw it the first time it felt like a natural extension of having Barack Obama as our president, but now when I see it it feels like a needed musical statement now that Trump as our president. In other words, it feels more urgent to me than ever before.

As far as Book of Mormon, it’s also one of my favorite shows. I saw it for the first time in 2012 through standing room after standing in line for six hours In 40° weather to get my SRO ticket. I enjoyed it very much then but maybe because I was in standing room at the back of the orchestra, some of the jokes didn’t maybe hit me as hard as they could have. I had the chance to see it on tour when it came through here last year. Hadn’t seen it since I saw it on Broadway. Anecdotally, I went with my African-American friend and at the end of the show she turned me and said that was now her favorite show, eclipsing The Color Purple which had previously had that honor. We both laughed our asses off. Shaw makes some interesting points that I hadn’t considered before, but I will say I don’t think any of the characters in the show are portrayed without faults or vulnerabilities. Obviously, her criticisms belong to her and because of that they are valid for her, but I think some of her criticisms of BOM probably hold more weight (with me) than her criticisms of Hamilton. Maybe she saw iffy casts upon her revisits of both or maybe she holds her first experiences in such high revered status that anything afterward was bound to disappoint.

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 11:16am

Did I agree with everything in the article? No. Did I think it was overall well thought out and far? Yes.

I haven't seen BOM since the first performance after it won the Tonys, and I loved it. but that was almost nine - nine! - years since it first came to Broadway, and until today I never really thought about how the humor lands with the huge turn in people's sensibilities. And the fact that they never released b-roll and a few production shots means a lot of people are still going to this show based on hype and hearing it's funny. Based on the comments in the article, people are walking out, so I do wonder how the show is landing now - not taking away from its general brilliance.  

Hamilton, I saw a later cast, who were mostly excellent, Maybe because I didn't go in with the rhapsodizing that most audiences go in with, it needed to prove itself to me, so while I appreciated the various elements of the show, I never loved it.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 11:17am

I don’t get the “equal opportunity comedy” defence. For one thing, Parker and Stone have never punched up as much as they’ve punched down. Even if they did, are we meant to accept that jokes about how Ugandans are gullible baby-raping idiots are equal with jokes about how Mormons are repressed?

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 11:17am

double the posting double the fun

Updated On: 12/19/19 at 11:17 AM