Helen Shaw takes down both BOM and Hamilton on Vulture- Page 3

[trpguyy]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 11:32am

“ I’m not saying every black person in BOM right now hates their job, but I know for a fact that there are a few who’d probably rather not sing “Hasa Diga Eebowai” every night. I know I wouldn’t.”

Isn’t that the same of pretty much every job ever though? Everybody has a price, and slightly compromises their comfort or desires to make a living.
For the actors in Book or Mormon who might disagree with the humor, or the dancers in Lion King who punish their bodies, that price is Broadway ensemble minimum (plus maybe 10% or so).

[seaweedjstubbs]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 1:09pm

trpguyy said: "“ I’m not saying every black person in BOM right now hates their job, but I know for a fact that there are a few who’d probably rather not sing “Hasa Diga Eebowai” every night. I know I wouldn’t.”

Isn’t that the same of pretty much every job ever though? Everybody has a price, and slightly compromises their comfort or desires to make a living.
For the actors in Book or Mormon who might disagree with the humor, or the dancers in Lion King who punish their bodies, that price is Broadway ensemble minimum (plus maybe 10% or so)."

True! Most people do make compromises with their jobs in order to make a living. The difference is that with most other jobs, your family and friends aren’t coming to watch you work. If I ever make it to Broadway, I want it to be in a show that I’d have no qualms about inviting family and friends to. Book of Mormon is not that show. And I’m not just being a prude - I’ve been in productions of Rent, Hair, and Avenue Q and had no issues inviting family and friends. Book of Mormon just crosses several lines that I wouldn’t be comfortable crossing. But that’s just me. And the sad thing is that if I were offered the show tomorrow, I’d 100% take it.

[orph3us]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 1:55pm

Hamilton will always hold a special place in my heart. I got into it in February of 2015 after my 6th grade drama teacher saw it at the Public over President’s Day Weekend and came back and told us it was ”the next big thing” and I instantly fell in love with it. I remember having a count down on my phone until the day the OBCR came out and listening to it at 9pm (I'm on the west coast) with a bunch of friends and going ballistic to every song. Every Wednesday at lunch I would eagerly await the Ham4Ham and I had a big ”Hamiltonys” party at my house with flash mobs during the commercial breaks. It didn't catch on at my school until after the Tonys and all the kids who picked on me for singing Hamilton all the time coming up to me and apologizing because ”it's actually pretty good” was so emotionally fulfilling. I look back on that era with so much joy because not only was I somewhat popular for ”helping discover Hamilton” but like many people my ages, it sparked my love for theatre. I always was a theatre kid but I never was ”intense” until I came across Hamilton and realized there were musicals that are modern without being comedies like Legally Blonde. My favorite before Hamilton was Oklahoma! for some odd reason as I wasn't even a teenager.
I didn't see the show August of freshman year, more than 2.5 years after I first became a fan of the show and my mom surprised me with second-row center seats. As soon as the opening rhythm began I sobbed and I don't think I ever stopped. My early adolescence had led up to that day and it was obviously the best ever. Joshua Henry stole the show for me and I adored Rory O’Malley and Jordan Donica as well.
I'm older now, and it's been almost 5 years since I first heard of Hamilton and while it's not my favorite musical anymore (it’s Hadestown, hence the username), and the lack of mention of slavery, and it's crazy prices somewhat disturb me, I have to give it credit for being the show that forever changed my life.
PS. When I saw Mormon, Connor Pierson was Cunningham, and he was the only cast member who I felt wasn't phoning it in and I hope he transfers to Broadway one day.

[AADA81]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 2:48pm

Synecdoche2 said: "AADA81 said: "Call_me_jorge said: "I’d rather get a review from a college student than a boomer..."

If that comment was meant to be funny, it wasn't. If it was meant to be ignorant, you hit the jackpot."

*you know I had to do it to 'em*

Ok, boomer."

I expected that to be the clever comeback.... to this non-boomer.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 12/19/19 at 3:22pm

Yeah, people rising up together to topple an oppressive leader and declare a trajectory toward a better future... nothing relevant there today.

When that actually happens, I'll think Hamilton is relevant again. 

[yankeefan7]

Posted: 12/21/19 at 11:53pm

"Could the arguement not be made for every show? Everything is a snapshot of the time that the piece was created"

I think you make an excellent point. For example, would gay people find the flamboyant depiction of the character Roger De Bris funny in "The Producers" now.  Would people think old people doing a tap dance with walkers funny today or think it is insensitive?

Updated On: 12/22/19 at 11:53 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/22/19 at 12:20am

AADA81 said: "ModernMillie3 said: "Trey and Matt have always been equal opportunity offenders. For like 20 years now.

If this author is a young millennial I completely understand her being offended, as they are offended by everything."

It's already been established on this thread that she's not a millennial, but what if she was? Why are you putting down a whole generation of people because you don't like what this author wrote? One has nothing to do with the other and your remark about millennials is a cheap shot."

Same reason Millennials say "Ok, Boomer."

[joevitus]

Posted: 12/22/19 at 12:24am

Charley Kringas Inc said: "I don’t get the “equal opportunity comedy” defence. For one thing, Parker and Stone have never punched up as much as they’ve punched down."

Wrong. And if you can't take a joke as being a joke, that's kinda on you.

 

[yankeefan7]

Posted: 12/22/19 at 9:53am

I saw Hamilton right after it opened on Broadway with the OBC and it was incredible. My family was in London last year and my daughters wanted to see it again there. While the cast was not as good as the OBC, they still were very good and we really enjoyed it. 

[yankeefan7]

Posted: 12/22/19 at 10:09am

"Trey and Matt have always been equal opportunity offenders. For like 20 years now.

If this author is a young millennial I completely understand her being offended, as they are offended by everything. "

Sadly, I think the entire world is offended by something. I am sure we could go to every show on Broadway and find something somebody might think is offensive. This Boomer (lol) remembers the day when you could make Italian, Irish and Polish (BTW - I am part Irish and my wife is Italian) jokes about people and they would understand it was a joke and laugh. I think the world is a better place if we can make fun/mock people in power, religion and just about anything.

[Charley Kringas Inc]

Posted: 12/23/19 at 10:39am

joevitus said: "Charley Kringas Inc said: "I don’t get the “equal opportunity comedy” defence. For one thing, Parker and Stone have never punched up as much as they’ve punched down."

Wrong. And if you can't take a joke as being a joke, that's kinda on you."

So I take it you consider jokes about Africans being gullible baby-raping morons to be roughly equal to jokes about Mormons being insular, sheltered doofuses?

[orph3us]

Posted: 12/23/19 at 11:15am

Charley Kringas Inc said: "joevitus said: "Charley Kringas Inc said: "I don’t get the “equal opportunity comedy” defence. For one thing, Parker and Stone have never punched up as much as they’ve punched down."

Wrong. And if you can't take a joke as being a joke, that's kinda on you."

So I take it you consider jokes about Africans being gullible baby-raping morons to be roughly equal to jokes about Mormons being insular, sheltered doofuses?"

And the jokes about Africans aren't even funny. Naba’s whole ”I’ll text you later bit” makes no sense when the majority of Ugandans had phones in 2009... Never once in the show are audience members prompted to sympathize with the Ugandans, who's many struggles are merely mocked. A pivotal  moment of the show is when the Ugandans finally revolt and the Mormons appeared shocked as if they did nothing wrong. 

A significant conflict the Africans face throughout the show is an evil general who threatens to circumcise the village women. Fortuitously, the Mormons save the Ugandans with their religious teachings, like the European colonization of Africa in the 1800s. The Mormons take immense repletion in the fact that they can convert many Ugandans and rejoice by singing a song called “I Am Africa.” When the Ugandans are baptized into Mormonism, they say they are “wiped away of sin.” This baptism pays homage to a section of the real Book of Mormon in which dark-skinned people turning white, or here becoming Westernized, is considered a sign of salvation. Ultimately, the Mormons save the Ugandans from the wicked general, promoting the “white-savior” narrative, an all-too-familiar trope in which a white character saves non-whites from impending doom. At times, the show feels like a way for white people to feel better about things they may have done discriminatory in their antiquities. This idea is most prevalent when the show ends the the Ugandans smiling and hugging the Mormons, despite their past mistreatment

[superiska123]

Posted: 12/23/19 at 11:18am

Context is important. I'd argue that the reason Africans are displayed the way they are is to show how out of touch the Mormon missionaries are. Besides, the show draws attention to actual problems like female genital mutilation and AIDS... A really simple and obvious example is how in "Hasa diga eebowai", the Africans talk about famine and poverty while Mormons are complaining how their bus was late — the intention isn't to make fun of African people, it's to show just how privileged and clueless the Mormons missionaries are. Obviously the whole show is hyperbole, a parody of the world we live in...

[orph3us]

Posted: 12/23/19 at 11:34am

superiska123 said: "Context is important. I'd argue that the reason Africans are displayed the way they are is to show howout of touch the Mormon missionaries are.Besides, the show draws attention to actual problems like female genital mutilation and AIDS... A really simple and obvious example is how in"Hasa diga eebowai", the Africans talk about famine and poverty while Mormons are complaining how their bus was late — the intention isn't to make fun of African people, it's to showjust how privileged and clueless the Mormons missionaries are.Obviously the wholeshow is hyperbole, a parody of the world we live in..."

Interesting point, but it reads as offensive because the writers aren't black. I understand that Matt Stone and Trey Parker are known for this type of comedy but that doesn't make it okay.  It is unethical for white people to carelessly disparage black people, a group that has an extensive history of oppression. The Mormon Church itself has welcomed the show, placing advertisements in Playbills, yet the black communities have not shown similar support. Also, the majority of audiences are white, at least when I saw it and I've had friends say similar things. The reason it's still running could be because on average white people see more live theatre than their POC counterparts, and shows which appeal to POC and make fun of white people are rarely fiscally successful or at least not to the scale that BOM is, and are called out for being ”reverse racist.” This also comes from the fact that the majority of mainstream theatre critics are white. 

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 12/23/19 at 12:26pm

"Besides, the show draws attention to actual problems like female genital mutilation and AIDS..."

I'm sorry but this is laughable. I don't find this to be true at all. While yes, "Hasa Diga eebowai" shows the difference in privilege in the two sets of characters, it also makes the Ugandans look incredibly stupid and the atrocities you claim are being brought to light are punchlines. I'm not saying I was offended, but lets not try to elevate this show into something it isn't. 

[superiska123]

Posted: 12/23/19 at 12:54pm

I guess this is where we disagree. I believe jokes can still point to problems in the world... It's sort of similar to the infamous "school shooter chic" line from DEH — The audience laughs because it is caught off guard by a politically incorrect statement and it's sheer absurdity, but we also feel extremely unpleasant because of the topic the line references... And in my opinion, that's exactly the goal of such jokes.

I didn't for one second think "Oh wow, so this must be what people in Uganda are like", I laughed at how unexpectedly crude the things said in the show are, while being reminded that the stuff the show references does still actually happen...

Updated On: 12/23/19 at 12:54 PM

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 12:33am

Sigh. As a high school English teacher, this thread has me feeling pretty hopeless. I am used to children not understanding the nuance and power of satire, but when (what I assume to be educated and worldly) adults are so astonishingly ignorant to the aim and emotional motivation of satire, I start to understand how Trump got elected. 

I made a joke very early in this thread about Jonathan Swift, an 18th century satirist who wrote an satirical essay called "A Modest Proposal" that posited that we should once and for all deal with the problem of so many poor Irish babies by feeding them to the wealthy of England. The point of the essay, like all satire, was to make people laugh at the implausibility, the silliness, the absurdity........and then make them realize that there is some truth to the suggestion, and that the wealthy of England might as well just eat the poor babies of Ireland with how those babies are being treated in real life. The point of the essay was to motivate people to do something about the poor babies in Ireland. 

On to BOM. My oh my. Female genital mutilation. Baby rape. Famine. AIDS. Lack of clean water. Dysentery. Lack of technology. Warlords. Violence. Colonialism. Neo-Colonialism. Religious hypocrisy.  How can any of this be fun?  Well any of us who have sat through a performance know that every audience roars with laughter at these topics. 

I am so disappointed that some of my fellow theater goers honestly and legitimately sat through BOM, saw Neutrogena (I'm sorry what's her name?) send a text via typewriter and think "They're making fun of Africans."  That is the response I get when I show my freshmen a headline from the Onion (sidenote: Please, none of you ever read the Onion....I think we'd have a civil war on our hands if some of you tried to make sense of it)  and they do not understand the point of the article and/or what's being satirized. So to be clear and simple to all of you who either failed Freshman English or maybe you were texting on a typewriter while your teacher taught, but the typewriter-as-text joke is NOT at the Ugandan people's expense. That joke is quite complicated actually. On one hand, Parker/Stone are saying that you are the one who is a dummy if you think Africans don't know what texting is. On the other hand, there are parts of Uganda where people are living without clean water, enough food......and access to tech. Now would they go so far as to be aware of texting but conflate it with a typerwriter? Of course not, but that is the rich rhetoric behind satire---this particular example uses hyperbole. 

The real emotion behind satire is anger. The audience is supposed to laugh and then be angry. Angry that they laughed at such a serious topics as a man dying of AIDS raping a baby to cure himself to a warlord circumcising a woman against her will. Are there millions of men in Africa raping babies to cure AIDS?  No, but has it happened before? You bet it has. Have warlords performed forced circumcisions? Yes they have. And we hear about it on 60 Minutes or in the NY Times and what do we do? We switch the channel to the Kardashians or turn to Page Six. (NY Post, ok fine) But Parker and Stone throw these issues in our faces and then sicken us by making us LAUGH at them. And now what?  We should be inspired to look up how can we help Uganda. Or how we can help women's rights in our local community. The absolute worst thing we could do is say that the show is offensive or it forces actors of color to humiliate themselves. Just as bad as parents who try to ban Huck Finn for the exact same reasons. 

The most disturbing poster is the one who said that Parker and Stone never get the audience to have sympathy for the Ugandans. I am still struggling to pick my jaw up from the floor and I read that response a day ago. The show does NOTHING but elicit sympathy for the Ugandans. They had to deal with the worthless parade of missionaries who came before the Mormons and did nothing for them. Now they have to deal with these idiot WHITE Mormons who are so dumb that they don't even fully understand what they're trying to teach--and they are so ignorant, they don't know about the historical racism inherent in their religion. They have to deal with all of the issues I mentioned above. Doesn't the song Salt Lake City ( I know that's not how you spell it, stans relax) break your heart? That this poor woman, this poor human being, thinks that paradise is a place with a Red Cross on every corner, and flies that don't bite your eyeballs? Where human life has worth? How many Africans are dying of preventable diseases, from a lack of sanitation and clean water? Can we really say that we care about what poor and marginalized Africans are going through? And here is a show that points out these problems and some of you have the nerve to say they shouldn't be?  

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 1:00am

My.... reading that just gave me goosebumps

[inception]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 1:41am

Wow! I wish every high school English teacher was as enthusiastic.

I came on here tonight to report my views on the current Bway cast of Hamilton after seeing the matinee today (Monday, December, 23, 2019). I actually found most of the cast as well as the esemble to be very strong. Krystal Joy Brown as Eliza was fantastic, and Daniel Breaker as Burr was very good. Iglehart's take on Lafayette/Jefferson is his own -he is flamboyant yet not quite as sexy as the performer I saw in Chicago (not sure of the name right now). Mandy Gonzales as Angelica felt a bit a bit more motherly towards Eliza than a big sister. The biggest weakness for me was Ryan Vasquez as Hamilton; he seems more passive & I didn't feel his ambition as I did seeing Miguel Cervantes in Chicago. With Vasquez, he's so tall and pretty, that it is almost like you don't doubt that the whole world would just fall into his lap. He sings the role well, but he isn't a very good actor - in Act 2 when his son SPOILERS













dies, Vasquez is a blank. Because he has such a large physical presence they need taller actors like Mandy Gonzales & Iglehart as Angelica & Jefferson respectively to literally stand up to him in scenes of conflict, such as when Angelica comes back to NY to be a at her sister's side & brushes Hamilton off. But unfortunately she comes across as more matronly than other Angelicas.
Someone who is a better actor is Daniel Yearwood as Laurens/Philip. When his Laurens is paired with Vasquez's Hamilton... I have rewritten this to make it less pornographic... his Laurens is more macho than most. Yearwood could be a very good Hamilton.
I just want to add the sightlines at the Richard Rodgers are so much better than in those at the CIBC theatre in Chicago. There isn't enough pitch in that theatre, so the heads of people in the row ahead of you obstruct so much. Here I was 3rd row from the top & had a complete view of the whole stage picture. As I went to Rosenkavelier at the Met afterwards, I also had my binoculars with me to see facial expressions - which is something I highly recommend.
If you have any interest in Rosenkavelier, tonight's cast was outstanding. Magdalena Kozena is the greatest Octavian I have ever seen - so much swagger that I think SHE would make a better Hamilton than Ryan Vasquez! But the cast the performed tonight returns for the January 1 & 4 performances and is different from the cast this coming Saturday, December 28.



 

Updated On: 12/24/19 at 01:41 AM

[superiska123]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 4:31am

Phantom4ever, thank you so much for articulating what I've been trying to put into words... I'm glad there are other people here that see the show the same way I do.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 8:31am

Casting really matters with BoM. The first time I saw it was with Nic Rouleau at the end of his 6 year stint as Price and an understudy (forgot who) as Cunningham and it was very stale and Rouleau had zero energy.

The second time I saw it Dave Thomas Brown was Price and Cody Jamison Strand was Cunningham and it was so much funnier. 

The Hamilton cast I saw was very uneven too. Michael Luwoye as Hamilton was excellent but Lexi Lawson and Mandy Gonzalez were not.

[clever2]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 9:47am

ModernMillie3 said: "AADA81 said: "ModernMillie3 said:If this author is a young millennial I completely understand her being offended, as they are offended by everything."

It's already been established on this thread that she's not a millennial, but what if she was? Why are you putting down a whole generation of people because you don't like what this author wrote? One has nothing to do with the other and your remark about millennials is a cheap shot."

Im sorry you're.....offended."

Hahahahaha

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 10:20am

Phantom4ever - thank you, thank you, thank you!

[Lavieboheme3090]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 12:18pm

I don’t think it’s a critique of Helen Shaw “being offended” by BOM. It’s rewatching the show in the Trump era jokes, and saying wow the jokes and satire we found amusing almost a decade ago don’t seem as funny. The laughter feel more that the expense of people and not with them. That’s a valid critique of an aging piece.

So no just because someone doesn’t find something as funny as they did years ago didn’t mean “they don’t get it,” it means that these long running shows aren’t frozen in time.

[tja928]

Posted: 12/24/19 at 2:10pm

Signed on for the first time in a while to say BRAVO phantom4ever!! Hit the nail on the head and then some.