Lea Michele as Fanny - Funny Girl - Page 65

[dan94]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 1:57pm

JSquared2 said: "blaxx said: "Or imagine if original starsCarolee Carmello and the late Brent Carver (both non-Jews) were cast simply because they were the "best" for the roles...oh wait a minute...they were! And they were MARVELOUS!!"

Brent Carver was cast in Parade because Matthew Broderick wasn’t working out and Hal Prince in full panic mode said “get me the star from my last show”. He was wrong for the part. He knew it and readily admitted it soon after the show closed. JRB and Urhy both thought he was wrong. But everyone went along because it was easier to make Prince happy than start a fight.

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 2:01pm

ColorTheHours048 said: "TBlaxx’s point about casting LMM and Kristin Chenoweth in Parade feels the most logical here. While it may be true that non-Jews have played Leo and Lucille, in THIS production, it was important to cast Jewish actors to tell a story that is inextricably about those characters’ Jewishness. The same is true of this Funny Girl production. If they had no intention of only casting Jewish actors as Fanny, they shouldn’t have noted it in the casting breakdowns."

100% agree here.

One thing I'd liken it to is The Witch in Into the Woods last and this year. Once they replaced Heather Headley with Patina Miller, it set a clear intention that the Witch in this production was Black and, since then, every actress to play or understudy her in this production has been Black (to the best of my knowledge).

For Funny Girl, they did originally cast a proud Jewish woman as Fanny and that was great. But then they also cast a proud Jewish woman as her standby and another proud Jewish woman as her understudy. I don't know/remember if the fact that all three of them were Jews made it beyond the Jewish community, but it was something that was noted and much appreciated. It was strong pattern and was clearly intentional. Once that intention was set, walking it back was guaranteed to cause conflict. 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 2:04pm

chrishuyen said: "It's the idea that if you are of that identity that is being made fun of, you'll probably do it in a loving way and be more aware of the nuances, but if you haven't lived in that experience, you could be accidentally overstepping lines that would make it come off as a two-dimensional stereotype or just tone-deaf/offensive. To be clear, I'm not saying this would be happening every time a straight guy plays gay or any other instance, but it's easier to know the cultural context when you've actually lived in that culture/identity. And a lot of stereotypes are harmful because they're reductive and reduces a character to just that stereotype, or because they have been used historically to discriminate against or persecute a particular group of people, so having that context matters."

Interesting. Cause Garfield won a Tony… yet here we are trying to get a national tour headliner to revoke probably the best job of her career… 

[CindersGolightly]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 2:48pm

jkcohen626 said: "ColorTheHours048 said: "TBlaxx’s point about casting LMM and Kristin Chenoweth in Parade feels the most logical here. While it may be true that non-Jews have played Leo and Lucille, in THIS production, it was important to cast Jewish actors to tell a story that is inextricably about those characters’ Jewishness. The same is true of this Funny Girl production. If they had no intention of only casting Jewish actors as Fanny, they shouldn’t have noted it in the casting breakdowns."

100% agree here.

One thing I'd liken it to is The Witch in Into the Woods last and this year. Once they replaced Heather Headley with Patina Miller, it set a clear intention that the Witch in this production was Black and, since then, every actress to play or understudy her in this production has been Black (to the best of my knowledge).

For Funny Girl, they did originally cast a proud Jewish woman as Fanny and that was great. But then they also cast a proud Jewish woman as her standby and another proud Jewish woman as her understudy. I don't know/remember if the fact that all three of them were Jews made it beyond the Jewish community, but it was something that was noted and much appreciated. It was strong pattern and was clearly intentional. Once that intention was set, walking it back was guaranteed to cause conflict."

exactly. it reminds me of the Dawn in Waitress fiasco after Jenna Ushkowitz's replacement was announced 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 3:36pm

But why don’t you have the same anger towards Ramin then? Should he have turned down the offer?

[jkcohen626]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 3:51pm

RippedMan said: "But why don’t you have the same anger towards Ramin then? Should he have turned down the offer?"

I don't think there has to be a one size fits all. In the show (not necessarily in real life) there is nothing inherently Jewish about Nick. The same goes for Ziegfeld, whose Judaism was central to his life's path in real life. To me there is nothing that having a Jewish actor in the role would add or clarify. Others have mentioned characters like Mark Cohen and I think he's another perfect example.

All of those roles are VERY different form Fanny. 

Updated On: 7/13/23 at 03:51 PM

[Penna2]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 4:31pm

RippedMan said: "But why don’t you have the same anger towards Ramin then? Should he have turned down the offer?"

I answered this earlier, but here goes:

Barbra herself likely picked him (directly or indirectly) for the production that was supposed to go forward in 2019. They did a concert together that she personally asked him to do. Two weeks later he agents saw the call and asked if he was interested. Before they could submit him, however, the producers called him to offer him the role - no audition necessary. That production went under with covid, but when they were putting this together, he was hired. Barbra also chose  Omar Sharif for the film. 

The original show wasn't specific about any of the other characters being Jewish or whatever. Sondheim simply said Fanny should be Jewish.

I don't know if Sydney Chaplin was a jew, I think he was, but the replacement Johnnie Desmond wasn't. Also, Kay Medford, playing Rose was not a Jew. Emma was played by a black actress because Fanny's maid, in real life was black. So the issue about Emma being a Jew in the casting call was interesting. Probably wanted her to be U/S like Ephie is in this version. Jane Lynch was cast as Rose - a head-scratcher for other reasons besides her ethnicity. Jared Grimes was cast to be a character who started out as a red-headed Irishman.

Nicky's father was a German Jew and his mother was Danish, I believe. He was raised Episcopalian and as Fanny notes in the show - are you sure your name is Arnstein? He never lived nor likely considered himself to be Jewish. So he looked very northern European, not darker skinned and ethnic looking as the stage/film Nickys.

So there has never been an issue with any of the other characters - just Fanny. The reason being Fanny was a Jewish icon and it is her story. I suspect that was Sondheim's logic when stars like Mary Martin and Carol Burnett were considered. Burnett turned it down because she felt Fanny should be played by a Jew. Eydie Gorme was considered which would have be great casting, IMO, but she wanted Steve Lawrence to play Nicky and, for some reason, they didn't like the idea. Styne wanted Streisand.

And to those who wonder, yes, I am modestly obsessed with the show, Ramin and Fanny, but not as much as Phantom of the Opera. Not sure what's wrong with that.

I hope this explanation makes sense for why Ramin is not an issue and why no one is complaining about the casting of the Nicky in the tour - I believe he's covering for Ramin on Broadway now.

It's all about Fanny. 

Updated On: 7/13/23 at 04:31 PM

[blaxx]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 4:40pm

QueenAlice said: "ColorTheHours048 said: "The social media backlash to this will likely have zero impact on audiences across the country, and it’s a shame they specifically noted they were looking for a Jewish actor and then cast a non-Jewish actor.

There is always a risk that social media baclkash becomes real news fodder, which could absolutely be damaging. The producers of the tour would be foolish to ignore this.



"

They owe a sensitive statement / apology / comitment to change moving forward.

If not her fault, there was no way she signed without awareness of public outrage. Same with the producers/ creatives.

In this day and age, keeping quiet is not and option. If they are going to make decisions of this kind they need to own the consequences and live with them. 

Being outspoken means all those involved may think twice before doing this again, as there are already records of their actions.

[Penna2]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 4:46pm

blaxx said: "QueenAlice said: "ColorTheHours048 said: "The social media backlash to this will likely have zero impact on audiences across the country, and it’s a shame they specifically noted they were looking for a Jewish actor and then cast a non-Jewish actor.

There is always a risk that social media baclkash becomes real news fodder, which could absolutely be damaging. The producers of the tour would be foolish to ignore this.



They owe a sensitive statement / apology / comitment to change moving forward.

If not her fault, there was no way she signed without awareness of public outrage. Same with the producers/ creatives.

In this day and age, keeping quiet is not and option. If they are going to make decisions of this kind they need to own the consequences and live with them.

Being outspoken means all those involved may think twice before doing this again, as there are already records of their actions."

I happened to look at her IG last night, just to get a feel for what was going on in that arena. I found she has a lot of support from fans, but there is other group who is being very vocal and I doubt that is going to stop.

But, to my point, apparently, she played Hodel in a production of Fiddler on the Roof, so finds auditioning for and accepting roles traditionally played by Jewish women not to be a problem.

 

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 6:03pm

You seriously need a hobby 

[Highland Guy]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 6:33pm

Sorry, video went weird

Updated On: 7/13/23 at 06:33 PM

[Penna2]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 6:44pm

QueenTwinnied said: "You seriously need a hobby"

I work, I write fiction, I follow subjects I'm interested in. Might be nice if others here were as informed as I am, then there wouldn't be so much misinformation posted here - like the Ramin issue. I post a lot less than before...it's actually been quite a while. Kind of boring here most of the time. I'm not into Broadway really - just certain shows. This is unlike some who have something to say on every thread. This issue is just important to me.

As I've said before, you can just scroll past. It's called free speech. Just because you don't like what I write, doesn't mean I have to stop writing it. Works both ways. Lots of people's stuff I just bypass. Most to be honest. It's really easy. It's that little roller thing on your mouse.

[RippedMan]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 7:44pm

jkcohen626 said: "RippedMan said: "But why don’t you have the same anger towards Ramin then? Should he have turned down the offer?"

I don't think there has to be a one size fits all. In the show (not necessarily in real life) there is nothing inherently Jewish about Nick. The same goes for Ziegfeld, whose Judaism was central to his life's path in real life. To me there is nothing that having a Jewish actor in the role would add or clarify. Others have mentioned characters like Mark Cohen and I think he's another perfect example.

All of those roles are VERY different form Fanny."

I totally get that, but from a creative/casting perspective what do you do with that? It's okay to have some roles as Jewish and some as not even though everyone is Jewish... I can see how that gets bogged down. Same with so many non-Jewish actors playing Jewish parts in TV/Film. It's like this one matters, that one is okay, this one doesn't work, etc. It's such a fine fine fine line. So it's just interesting that this was the one to blow it all up.

[QueenAlice]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 9:37pm

I suppose the answer to this is also subjective but I know years ago the criteria for someone to be able to come to NYC from overseas to recreate their role was that the producers had to show how they were “uniquely qualified” for the role. 
 

I suppose a question here could be is the attributes  (ethnicity, gender etx ) of the role such that it uniquely requires an actor with certain attributes. That might pave the role for, in unique situations, questions to be asked of a performer that are not normally permissible. 
  
And i think the consideration would need to be based exclusively on the script. Not the reality of the historic figure. 
 

I think Fanny is the only character in the show you can really make an argument  should “essentially” be played by a Jewish actor, and that is mostly because the characters persona plays on self deprecating ethnic humor that arguably is insensitive when performed by a non Jew. 

But even as  I write that it saddens me, that we as a civilization have regressed to such ugly unabashed openly hateful public opinions and unchivalrous behavior that this is an argument we have to seriously have at this moment in time . I don’t think we have to consider ethnic heritage in casting because we’ve “come so far” in 2023, it’s because we have regressed to a place societally where we can’t afford he luxury of art and story being openly available to any person who wishes to express it. 

 

Updated On: 7/13/23 at 09:37 PM

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 9:47pm

Helen Mirren is in Jerusalem right now, opening the film festival there with her lauded turn as Golda Meir in Golda. Mirren is not Jewish, and she and Israeli director Guy Nattiv addressed the issue directly. Its certainly a case by case thing. 

Again, the problem is that in certain communities (and Bway is one of them) we have been told that actors must match the specific ethnicity of their characters exactly, otherwise its racially insensitive. Reasonable people knew from the outset that this was an untenable and outright silly position to take (do you remember the anger at the In The Heights movie because the actors of color weren't the right kind of diverse for that specific 2021 moment?) but here we are. What irks me is that the VERY SAME people who are so sanctimonious about this issue do a complete 180 when it comes to Jews. 

And Funny Girl is in a particular bind because this very production team made such hay out of Beanie being a particularly proud Jew, and Feirstein punched up the Jewish bits in the book, emphasizing the yiddish undertones. Now they turn around and toss all that out the window to give some unknown her big break? Its insulting given the specific context. And whereas Mirren is a unique talent bringing serious acting chops to Golda Meir, I find it hard to believe this new Fanny Brice is so so talented she made the thousands of Jewish options irrelevant.

But whatever, this is a garbage production of a weak-ass outright silly show with a creaky book that is as stale as anything Ive ever seen. 

[QueenTwinnied]

Posted: 7/13/23 at 11:51pm

Penna2 said: "QueenTwinnied said: "You seriously need a hobby"

I work, I write fiction, I follow subjects I'm interested in. Might be nice if others here were as informed as I am, then there wouldn't be so much misinformation posted here - like the Ramin issue. I post a lot less than before...it's actually been quite a while. Kind of boring here most of the time. I'm not into Broadway really - just certain shows. This is unlike some who have something to say on every thread. This issue is just important to me.

As I've said before, you can just scroll past. It's called free speech. Just because you don't like what I write, doesn't mean I have to stop writing it. Works both ways. Lots of people's stuff I just bypass. Most to be honest. It's really easy. It's that little roller thing on your mouse."

i’M sO iNfOrMed

Get a life, boomer 

[Phillyguy]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 12:15am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "Helen Mirren is in Jerusalem right now, opening the film festival there with her lauded turn as Golda Meir in Golda. Mirren is not Jewish, and she and Israeli director Guy Nattiv addressed the issue directly. Its certainly a case by case thing.

Again, the problem is that in certain communities (and Bway is one of them) we have been told that actors must match the specific ethnicity of their characters exactly, otherwise its racially insensitive. Reasonable people knew from the outset that this was an untenable and outright silly position to take (do you remember the anger at the In The Heights movie because the actors of color weren't the right kind of diverse for that specific 2021 moment?) but here we are. What irks me is that the VERY SAME people who are so sanctimonious about this issue do a complete 180 when it comes to Jews.

And Funny Girl is in a particular bind because this very production team made such hay out of Beanie being a particularly proud Jew, and Feirstein punched up the Jewish bits in the book, emphasizing the yiddish undertones. Now they turn around and toss all that out the window to give some unknown her big break? Its insulting given the specific context. And whereas Mirren is a unique talent bringing serious acting chops to Golda Meir, I find it hard to believe this new Fanny Brice is so so talented she made the thousands of Jewish options irrelevant.

But whatever, this is a garbage production of a weak-ass outright silly show with a creaky book that is as stale as anything Ive ever seen."

It’s quite insulting to suggest that the producers gave this unknown a big break. Is it possible that she was the best portrayal of Fanny during audition?!?! I listened to her dining People and I have to say she sounded very similar to Lea and her vocal is excellent. 
 

And no need to insult the show just because the tour lead isn’t Jewish. That doesn’t come across very well either. 

[MichelleCraig]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 5:23am

Will there be a thread on this, too?

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/bradley-cooper-jewish-leonard-bernstein-maestro-20220609.html

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 5:56am

Phillyguy said: "
It’s quite insulting to suggest that the producers gave this unknown a big break. Is it possible that she was the best portrayal of Fanny during audition?!?! I listened to her dining People and I have to say she sounded very similar to Lea and her vocal is excellent.


And no need to insult the show just because the tour lead isn’t Jewish. That doesn’t come across very well either."

There are various people making intelligent points from all sides on this topic, and then others who seem to have wandered over here after a tiring day in sixth grade. 

Comparing someone no one had ever heard of before this week to Helen Mirren is not insulting anyone. Thinking this actress (who I presume is quite good, I have no reason to think otherwise) was unequivocally leagues better and more talented than the myriad other actresses who auditioned is just naive immaturity. 

And my thoughts on Funny Girl as a show and this production in particular (including my appreciation for what Beanie did with the role) have been consistent since i saw it in previews a year and a half ago. Yes, I agree that *you* are someone who would frame all their opinions around whether they like/dislike a given show (like you are right now, pretending that this new Fanny is the second coming of Streisand), but I, a reasonable adult, would have the same opinion of these producers and Michael Mayer whether we were talking about a production I adored or one I did not. 

 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 7:22am

All the people who submitted for Fanny and are now complaining should publicly post their audition tapes and we, the general public, can be the judges. Done. 

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 7:38am

MichelleCraig said: "Will there be a thread on this, too?

https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/bradley-cooper-jewish-leonard-bernstein-maestro-20220609.html"

Who knows, but I’ve had conversations with friends who are Jewish, and they’ve expressed the same upset over Cooper being cast as they have with this Funny Girl casting.

I strongly encourage anyone having trouble understanding this topic to listen to Sarah Silverman’s episode on Jewface: https://open.spotify.com/episode/0ATMAOQDbjQkc7XdnOt3Yd?si=ZFUykIcNQ3iqdgciqvoZPg

[Phillyguy]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 7:58am

PipingHotPiccolo said: "Comparing someone no one had ever heard of before this week to Helen Mirren is not insulting anyone. Thinking this actress (who I presume is quite good, I have no reason to think otherwise) was unequivocally leagues better and more talented than the myriad other actresses who auditioned is just naive immaturity.

And my thoughts on Funny Girl as a show and this production in particular (including my appreciation for what Beanie did with the role) have been consistent since i saw it in previews a year and a half ago. Yes, I agree that *you* are someone who would frame all their opinions around whether they like/dislike a given show (like you are right now, pretending that this new Fanny is the second coming of Streisand), but I, a reasonable adult, would have the same opinion of these producers and Michael Mayer whether we were talking about a production I adored or one I did not.

"

I'm not comparing her to Helen Mirren, but simply asking is it possible that she was the best amongst those who auditioned for this role? Either best vocally or best fit for the Fanny the creative team was going for? Are you suggesting that they intentionally cast her over a Jewish actress for reasons unrelated to her fit for the role? That's a pretty big claim.

I'm not claiming Lea is the second coming of Streisand. I like her take on the role, and clearly so do many as it's a big hit. All I said was Katerina's take on People in the clip posted by Playbill yesterday sounded like how Lea sings it. Perhaps that's the reason she was cast. They want someone who could sing the high notes and perform similar to the current lead of the show. 

 

[blaxx]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 8:03am

PipingHotPiccolo said:

Again, the problem is that in certain communities (and Bway is one of them) we have been told that actors must match the specific ethnicity of their characters exactly, otherwise its racially insensitive. Reasonable people knew from the outset that this was an untenable and outright silly position to take."

Yes, an actor matching the ethnicity of the character is untenable, in the most diverse city in the country lol

They just liked her better. The effort wasn't put in. 

Truly, in a tour with no names you certainly could've found a gazillion and one Jewish performers just in NYC. 

The issue is not the casting decision, it is that they can't own it with a straight face. 

[binau]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 8:20am

The way this is going, the only person that will be allowed to star in Funny Girl in the future will be Fanny Brice herself in an AI hologram. 

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 7/14/23 at 8:37am

binau said: "The way this is going, the only person that will be allowed to star in Funny Girl in the future will be Fanny Brice herself in an AI hologram."

Why would that be so when there are many capable performers who identify as Jewish? This is such a stupid point to make.