No more MISS SAIGON...- Page 3

[Wick3]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 9:46am

Wasn't the most recent revival in West End back in 2014 due to the show's 25th anniversary? It had a successful run there and was then brought to Broadway. I wouldn't be surprised if the next revival is in 2039 in West End for the 50th anniversary. Perhaps with changes but who knows. If it's successful there, it will then go to Broadway. 

[Wick3]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 9:47am

Wasn't the most recent revival in West End back in 2014 due to the show's 25th anniversary? It had a successful run there and was then brought to Broadway. I wouldn't be surprised if the next revival is in 2039 in West End for the 50th anniversary. Perhaps with changes but who knows. If it's successful there, it will then go to Broadway. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 10:58am

This discussion reminds me of a conversation I overheard at a bar many years ago. A group of drunk men motioned the bartender for another round. The bartender said he was sorry but he could not serve them any more drinks. One of the guys asked why. The bartender said "you've had enough." The guy said "we are just having a good time." The bartender replied "yes, but you are having it at the expense of others."

[JennH]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 11:32am

Sunny11 said: "
I would like to see an Asian creative team get a hold of it. For the same reason I would like to see Disney remake Sound of the South with an African - American team. Let’s see if these problematic projects could be repaired by adeft touch by talented people who have the cultural backgrounds to know what s wrong or missing from the original incarnations."

I'm assuming you meant SONG of the South? But I can agree with this idea for sure, heaven knows that film is racist as HEEELLLL but call me nuts for not wanting it cancelled...I want it to exist as a teaching tool, which is how I feel about pretty much every problematic piece out there. 

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 11:42am

The World:  Dramatic social change and a monumental reexamining of attitudes and values.

BWW:  Please!  Won't someone think of the half-assed kitsch that was called out as tacky and racist 30 ****ing years ago?  Muh heart can't take it!

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 11:43am

JennH said: "Sunny11 said: "
I would like to see an Asian creative team get a hold of it. For the same reason I would like to see Disney remake Sound of the South with an African - American team. Let’s see if these problematic projects could be repaired by adeft touch by talented people who have the cultural backgrounds to know what s wrong or missing from the original incarnations."

I'm assuming you meant SONG of the South? But I can agree with this idea for sure, heaven knows that film is racist as HEEELLLL but call me nuts for not wanting it cancelled...I want it to existas a teaching tool, which is how I feel about pretty much every problematic piece out there."

I recently saw Song of the South, and yes I agree that the film is racist as hell, but I am also in agreement that it should not be cancelled if only for the reasons you described. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 12:17pm

JennH said: "I'm assuming you meant SONG of the South? But I can agree with this idea for sure, heaven knows that film is racist as HEEELLLL but call me nuts for not wanting it cancelled...I want it to existas a teaching tool, which is how I feel about pretty much every problematic piece out there."

First, "cancelled" is a racist radical right buzzword and I really think the rest of us ought not normalize it. 

Second, no one is suggesting that all extant copies of the book and score be burned so of course it would be available for teaching purposes or anything else. 

But third, let's understand that we are not having this discussion because people are concerned about having the property available for teaching about racism etc. And we are mostly not having it because people are hoping that some POCs will revisit it to try to reclaim the narrative. The people who are angsting about this are people who have enjoyed the show and think that it is just ducky that their enjoyment should be paramount, especially in relation to the POC at whose expense they are doing their enjoying. This, incidentally, is no different than the arguments white people made about minstrel shows. Go back and read the posts in this thread through that filter if you are so inclined. 

[lucynewlife]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 12:49pm

Regarding the white savior narrative, I feel like the revival deliberately softened Chris and Ellen to the detriment of any point being made negatively about the American characters, with John perhaps being the exception.

For instance, the revival lyrics during "The Confrontation" were altered to be less dehumanizing ("The girl is smart" becomes "Kim is smart") and less "White people deciding what is best for someone from a war-torn country in a patronizing, selfish manner."

After Ellen says "Only thing you left out is that you loved her," Chris's line "It was just two weeks, that was years ago!" was changed for the revival into "Yes, we were in love, it was years ago, we were torn apart!"

Chris was originally portrayed here as someone who was, sure, haunted by the memory of Kim but who ultimately throws their experience together out the window as being "just two weeks" when confronted with the idea that Kim isn't just going to be someone they meet and leave. And they softened him in the revival into someone who was in love but was torn apart from her and is who is truly conflicted.

Ellen addresses John when arguing that Kim can't be around, rather than addressing Chris, and specifically uses "we" instead of "I." It softens her character to be less harsh.

Original lyric: "If it was only Tam, I'd take him now. He is your son we'd make it work somehow. But Chris, she still loves you. How can I have her near?"

Revised to "If it were only Tam we'd take him now, He's Chris's son we'd make it work somehow. But John she still loves him. How can we have her there?"

So Ellen went from being portrayed as someone primarily concerned with how she'd be able to handle Kim being near her, to it being framed as a concern from the couple--in addition to distancing Chris from her words by addressing a third party.

[Fan123]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 5:10pm

That's interesting, lucynewlife - and not good. I mean, why God why.

[Fan123]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 5:10pm

Duplicate Updated On: 4/26/21 at 05:10 PM

[Wildcard]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 7:00pm

Bettyboy72 said: "People who call Miss Saigon “true” and “not sugar coated” are often people who are blind to their privilege and often white. If people have empathy for Kim and the other women then they don’t understand the problem with the musical. They don’t see the white savior aspects of the show."

I grew up in the late 70s in Asia in areas that were not that much different from what was portrayed in the musical. These types of stories truly did happen. Woke people and even Asian-Americans who feel that Miss Saigon does not represent how they see the world are entitled to feel the way they do but have no right to erase the stories of those that went through such tragedies. They still happen now with women from poorer communities hoping to marry the white savior to take them out of their hardships. The authors never tried to hide that the white characters were acting like they were saviors though to be fair, they were only seeing it from the POV of the Americans thinking they were GI Joe heroes. 

People were desperate in these times. Perhaps instead of the women dreaming of a better life with the GIs in "Movie in My Mind," they can dream of what life would have been like had they not been forced into prostitution or had war not happened. Cancelling Miss Saigon because it is not a woke representation of asian women is not the answer. The bigger tragedy is that in the 30 years since Miss Saigon, hardly anyone has stepped up to tell Asian stories different from what was portrayed in this show; That no other asian actors have been given opportunities in roles that would have elevated them to the fame Lea Salonga achieved (Ruthie Ann, Ashley Park or Eva Noblezada are nowhere near the same level of fame) . None of these are Miss Saigon's fault.  

 

[windowwaving]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 11:00pm

Wildcard said: "I grew up in the late 70s in Asia in areas that were not that much different from what was portrayed in the musical. These types of stories truly did happen. Woke people and even Asian-Americans who feel that Miss Saigon does not represent how they see the world are entitled to feel the way they do but have no right to erase the stories of those that went through such tragedies.They still happen now with women from poorer communities hoping to marry the white savior to take them out of their hardships. The authors never tried to hide that the white characters were acting like they were saviors though to be fair, they were only seeing it from the POV of the Americans thinking they were GI Joe heroes.

People were desperate in these times. Perhaps instead of the women dreaming of a better life with the GIs in "Movie in My Mind," they can dream of what life would have been like had they not been forced into prostitution or had war not happened. Cancelling Miss Saigon because it is not a woke representation of asian women is not the answer. The bigger tragedy is that in the 30 years since Miss Saigon, hardly anyone has stepped up to tell Asian stories different from what was portrayed in this show;That no other asian actors have been given opportunities in roles that would have elevated them to the fame Lea Salonga achieved (Ruthie Ann, Ashley Parkor Eva Noblezada are nowhere near the same level of fame) . None of these are Miss Saigon's fault."

No one said the show is being 'canceled.' The cast recordings, pro-shot, etc still live on and are still available. To your point that it's sad that no one has been able to create a show for a different portrayal of Asians on the stage, to mount Miss Saigon again would rob that opportunity. 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 11:01pm

Wildcard said: "The bigger tragedy is that in the 30 years since Miss Saigon, hardly anyone has stepped up to tell Asian stories different from what was portrayed in this show;That no other asian actors have been given opportunities in roles that would have elevated them to the fame Lea Salonga achieved (Ruthie Ann, Ashley Parkor Eva Noblezada are nowhere near the same level of fame)."

This is the real issue. Miss Saigon and The King and I should not be the only options for Asian performers, and we haven’t ever moved past these two shows after decades of revivals. In the same way, I think Hamilton opened people’s eyes to BIPOC performers as traditionally white principal characters, but that didn’t mean other shows since would cast their shows with BIPOC performers in principal roles.

[A Director]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 1:20am

With a cast album and a video of the show, I see no reason to keep dragging out Miss Saigon time after time. It's part of a long line of plays, operas, movies and novels retelling the West's fantasy of Asia. For those of say it tells the audience about the war in Vietnam; it tells of the war from a Western point of view.I bet many people would be surprised to learn there was a war going on long before the United States arrived. Of course, there is no mention of this in Miss Saigon. Of course, the two French authors don't make even a passing reference to France and Vietnam. And the cherry on top, Miss Saigon is a terrible musical. The chopper in Act II would make David Belasco green with envy.

Yes, WILDCARD, people were desperate in those times, but Miss Saigon would lead people to think all women in the country worked in bars. That is not true. Yes, WILDCARD, Americans did father children during the war, but Miss Saigon would lead people to think that's all they did.

WILDCARD you state, "... hardly anyone has stepped up to tell Asian stories different from what was portrayed in this show..." Either you view theatre through a musical comedy lens or your theatre knowledge is narrow. You want different Asian stories, here are two that have been produced around the United States. The first is VIETGONE by Qui Nguyen, a love story about his parents, Quang (his father) and Tong (his mother). Some of the story takes place in Saigon after the fall in 1975. There is no chopper, but Quang was helicopter pilot during the woman. Tong did not work in a bar. The second is CAMBODIAN ROCK BAND by Laureen Yee. Part of the play takes place before and during the Khmer Rouge regime.

Finally, here are three theatre companies that have moved beyond Miss Saigon and TKAI.

https://eastwestplayers.org

https://www.panasianrep.org

http://ma-yitheatre.org

 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 8:02am

Where has it EVER been stated that Miss Saigon tells ALL the stories of the Vietnam war or its people?  It tells THIS story.   If you want to blame ignorant audience members for anything else, go ahead - but don't blame the show. 

 

I'm not saying the show is perfect, nor that some of your arguments aren't valid - but let's pull back a bit on the condemnation of the piece as a whole.  You are judging a piece written in 1989 (London premiere) by today's eyes  - and that's a problem in itself.

 

When has any piece of art, be it bway show, novel, film, ever been able to look at all stories surrounding the work?  Never - it's a slice of life.  We, as an audience, listen and watch - and hopefully THINK.

I don't pretend to know the correct way to proceed with many shows that have fallen under the microscope - but I know I do OFTEN think how  the Asian actor, the Black actor, the Latinx actor must feel when auditioning - and so often only being asked to read/test for the rapist, the gang member, the dragon mother (etc) only the negative stereotypes.  I also think it must be exhausting wondering if they need only look for "their" stories.   

 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 9:59am

A Director, thanks for listing those theatre companies (and there are many, many more out there). And I loved Vietgone but was out of town for Cambodian Rock Band. I should have clarified that BROADWAY hasn’t moved past Miss Saigon or The King and I, and any other Asian-centric story is considered a risk to produce and therefore is rarely produced.

[unclevictor]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 10:37am

I should have clarified that BROADWAY hasn’t moved past Miss Saigon or The King and I, and any other Asian-centric story is considered a risk to produce and therefore is rarely produced."

How do u know it’s a risk? And who says it’s a risk? A reviewer? Who cares.

I don’t think producing 

flower drum song

m butterfly 

allegiance

were risks at all. 
 

[ggersten]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 10:51am

The French involvement in Vietnam is sung about in The American Dream. It was not ignored by the French creators.

 

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 11:20am

I don’t think it’s a risk. Producers think it’s a risk.

It doesn’t help that the three shows you mentioned were big flops. That shouldn’t deter people from bringing shows like that to Broadway, but it does.

[unclevictor]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 11:33am

HeyMrMusic said: "I don’t think it’s a risk. Producers think it’s a risk.

It doesn’t help that the three shows you mentioned were big flops. That shouldn’t deter people from bringing shows like that to Broadway, but it does."

I don’t think m butterfly was a flop.

allegiance on the other hand was a big flop, but don’t tell the producers that. They think it was a masterpiece and the most important story ever told. 
it was absolutely terrible

[joevitus]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 12:36pm

dramamama611 said: "Where has it EVER been stated that Miss Saigon tells ALL the stories of the Vietnam war or its people? It tells THIS story. If you want to blame ignorant audience members for anything else, go ahead - but don't blame the show.



I'm not saying the show is perfect, nor that some of your arguments aren't valid - but let's pull back a bit on the condemnation of the piece as a whole. You are judging a piece written in 1989 (London premiere) by today's eyes - and that's a problem in itself.



When has any piece of art, be it bway show, novel, film, ever been able to look at all stories surrounding the work? Never - it's a slice of life. We, as an audience, listen and watch - and hopefully THINK.

I don't pretend to know the correct way to proceed with many shows that have fallen under the microscope - but I know I do OFTEN think how the Asian actor, the Black actor, the Latinx actor must feel when auditioning - and so often only being asked to read/test for the rapist, the gang member, the dragon mother (etc) only the negative stereotypes. I also think it must be exhausting wondering if they need only look for "their" stories.

"

Pretty good post until the end. When was the last time there was a "Dragon Lady" casting call? Maybe in a spoof? In an era of Caroline, or Change, The Color Purple, Hamilton (and remembering shows like Purlie, and The Wiz), you think Black actors are only asked to play "the rapist, the gang member"? Not to mention the dramas of August Wilson and of course Lorraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun. When most dramas on t.v. have sympathetic, moral Black, Asian and Hispanic characters, you think all that's available are "negative stereotypes"? 

The charge is ridiculous. 1978 wants its poor treatment of minorities back. Doesn't speak for today. While the supposed revolution in society has most certainly not occurred (most everything from art to commerce to politics controlled by whites--and I don't note that with pleasure), there has been--for some time--quite a transformation in terms of roles in t.v. and theater available to people of various minorities. 

 

[JennH]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 12:47pm

joevitus said: "dramamama611 said: "Where has it EVER been stated that Miss Saigon tells ALL the stories of the Vietnam war or its people? It tells THIS story. If you want to blame ignorant audience members for anything else, go ahead - but don't blame the show.



I'm not saying the show is perfect, nor that some of your arguments aren't valid - but let's pull back a bit on the condemnation of the piece as a whole. You are judging a piece written in 1989 (London premiere) by today's eyes - and that's a problem in itself.



When has any piece of art, be it bway show, novel, film, ever been able to look at all stories surrounding the work? Never - it's a slice of life. We, as an audience, listen and watch - and hopefully THINK.

I don't pretend to know the correct way to proceed with many shows that have fallen under the microscope - but I know I do OFTEN think how the Asian actor, the Black actor, the Latinx actor must feel when auditioning - and so often only being asked to read/test for the rapist, the gang member, the dragon mother (etc) only the negative stereotypes. I also think it must be exhausting wondering if they need only look for "their" stories.

"

Pretty good post until the end. When was the last time there was a "Dragon Lady" casting call? Maybe in a spoof? In an era of Caroline, or Change, The Color Purple, Hamilton (and remembering shows like Purlie,and The Wiz), you think Black actors are only asked to play "the rapist, the gang member"? Not to mention the dramas of August Wilson and of course Lorraine Hansberry's A Raisin in the Sun.When most dramas on t.v. have sympathetic, moral Black, Asian and Hispanic characters, you think all that's available are "negative stereotypes"?

The charge is ridiculous. 1978 wants its poortreatment of minorities back. Doesn't speak for today.While the supposedrevolution in society has most certainly not occurred (most everything from art to commerce to politics controlled by whites--and I don't notethat with pleasure), there has been--for some time--quite a transformation in terms of roles in t.v. and theateravailable to people of various minorities.

"

You're absolutely right about all this, but I've been deep diving into 80's and 90's media...there's some TV shows that I'd never heard of that featured black actors that didn't revolve around the black experience, at least not entirely, and let me tell you, I wonder what the heck happened to make that goes away almost entirely...by no means am I saying that problematic shows/casting didn't exist then, but maaannn I found some treasures where it just happened to be that these characters were black and dealing with normal human situations. Of course the explanation why they weren't in the forefront should be obvious...sadly. 

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 1:29pm

A Director said: " Of course, the two French authors don't make even a passing reference to France and Vietnam.“

Did we watch the same show? There are abundant references to France from french phrases thrown around by the Engineer to his origin story. Please base your argument on facts, not shody false statements.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 2:30pm

I didn't say ONLY, I said OFTEN only.  A big difference.  Your list of black experience plays/musicals  is wonderful - but as part of what I said was about how  the weight carrying the black experience play must be exhausting.  Not that they didn't exist. In making the comment, too,  White people don't have to worry about speaking for their race when choosing roles.  I was thinking more than about JUST the bway experience - but film and tv as well, and perhaps that felt overwhelming - I watch a lot of SVU.  

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/27/21 at 2:40pm

dramamama611 said: "Where has it EVER been stated that Miss Saigon tells ALL the stories of the Vietnam war or its people? It tells THIS story. If you want to blame ignorant audience members for anything else, go ahead - but don't blame the show."

No, but when it's very few Asian-centric shows offered at all, then it skews people's views. If you've only gotten to eat oranges out of season, you might KNOW intellectually there are better ones out there, but you've never had one, you might need convincing that they actually can taste good, and you're not likely to try another.