No more MISS SAIGON... — Page 2

When I look back and think about how drastically my own politics, opinions have changed in even just a few years, I can see how hers can change, especially since she's younger than me.

She was also chosen to audition for the role right after high school, not like she went to an open call. I don't think anyone would turn down the opportunity to audition for Cameron Mackintosh right after graduating. And as others have said, there are few roles for AAPI actresses on stage, much less a starring lead role.

VintageSnarker said: "For those making the Madama Butterfly comparison, Miss Saigon is worsened by the specific and granular changes. Read those Kim lyrics and tell me it isn't an infantilizing, othering modern Orientalist fantasy."

First off it's not modern, it is a period piece. Second what you've described is exactly what they are trying to show.

The critiques of Miss Saigon are nothing new to do with "woke culture" as they have existed for as long as the show has existed. This review from 30 years ago lays out many of the points that people are still talking about today: https://www.villagevoice.com/2019/04/23/the-review-that-almost-toppled-civilization/

That said, I also think a major part of the problems with Miss Saigon are not those that the show itself makes but rather missing pieces of context, and the problems would be fewer if it weren't the only major musical centering Asian characters, but one of many stories in which AAPI people are able to lead rich, diverse lives. But when the context is instead The King & I, South Pacific, Flower Drum Song, etc. it adds up to a much larger problem. Many of the issues frequently brought up with Miss Saigon--namely, the painting of characters in broad, generalized strokes, the subjugation of the female characters to the male gaze as sex workers, and the general commodification of suffering--are things that the writers do just as much in Les Miserables, but the stakes of representing French people on Broadway are much lower.

I liked Miss Saigon when I first saw it and I still like much of the score. That being said I have evolved over time and can’t view it the same way.

People who call Miss Saigon “true” and “not sugar coated” are often people who are blind to their privilege and often white. If people have empathy for Kim and the other women then they don’t understand the problem with the musical. They don’t see the white savior aspects of the show.

I had a similar reaction during Priscilla to Cynthia. Actually in that case I was unnerved. I was unsure if that character would be included in the musical and if she was I assumed she would be cast colorblind and portrayed as a stripper type. But no they went full “me love you long time” mode and I found it really insulting. Anyone can shoot ping pong balls. She doesn’t need to be a caricature Asian woman. I felt bad for Elaine Marcos.

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There was this from 2018, too (from a former Toronto cast member):
https://www.cbc.ca/arts/25-years-ago-miss-saigon-gave-me-my-big-break-25-years-later-would-i-be-protesting-it-1.4678805

The show means the world to me. But in this age of #representationmatters, it is just not good enough for the people on stage to be diverse. It is just not good enough to hear generic Asian-flavoured western music pass for the music of a people and region. It is just not good enough for the story of a culturally specific group be told, composed, created and performed by people who are not of that culture.

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it took her 7 years after playing the role to realize it’s a problematic show??? girl

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I feel like almost any show can be mounted with the right context and the right vision. I don't think just never having the show done again is the answer. We've seen shows with problematic elements like South Pacific or Oklahoma or My Fair Lady or Carousel (not the 2018 one) contextualized and given a fresh lens. There were varying degrees of success with those examples but it can be done. That's the beauty of theatre and it can be done with this show too I believe. I agree that having an Asian or Asian American creative team would be one way I'd love to see Miss Saigon tackled. I don't think just doing the same old version of the production is the answer but just not doing it is not the answer either IMO. I know it's not an all time great work of theatre but I think it has enough good qualities that it's worth looking at with a different lens down the road.

LizzieCurry said: "HogansHero said: "The difference with something like this is that we are in the midst of a cultural revolution, white male dominance is ebbing, and those with a stake in it are kicking and screaming."

Just wanted to make sure people don't miss this as the thread hopefully doesn't descend into dreck."

Sure, the current world power structure just screams "end of white male dominance" lol. Not sure why you don't want anyone to miss the comment, as it is at worst kinda bonkers, at best wishful thinking. There was a lot of this talk in the 70's, too. When change happens, I'll believe it. Not until then.

Miss Saigon is a period piece, anyway. Always was.

^QED

^QED

gypsy101 said: "it took her 7 years after playing the role to realize it’s a problematic show??? girl"

It's taking some people on message boards a lot longer, TBH

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Ravenclaw said: "I think that's a good way of putting it--while yes, the show does condemn the sleaziness of thewhite men and encourage empathy with the Vietnamese women in the piece, the reality is more complex than that.

As for this idea of "truth" in representing history, I think that if truthful historical representation was the highestpriority for the creatives, they wouldn't have engaged in yellow-face in casting the original production."

I want to note that I'm criticizing Hytner's argument and not yours. I think that's a very convenient framing of "truth." Yes, the Vietnam War happened. But none of these characters are real. So choices were being made by the creatives. Are there sex workers in LA? Yes. Does that make Pretty Woman "truthful"? Bipolar disorder exists. Does that make Next to Normal "truthful"? Female slaves being tasked with childrearing doesn't make the mammy stereotype true. The problem is the depiction of the characters and the chosen narratives.