No more MISS SAIGON...- Page 2

[Jarethan]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 4:28pm

I guess it is just a matter of time before opera houses stop playing Madame Butterfly.

I personally am getting tired of all this revisionist thinking.  There is no doubt in my mind that the story told in Miss Saigon was, sadly, true, in that there was a war on and innocent young ladies were victimized.  I don't think Miss Saigon glamorizes or white washes the issues; it is ultimately a tragedy, for heaven's sake, and does not condone her being a prostitute, it weeps for her.

I do not think Miss Saigon is a masterpiece, but I do think it can be great entertainment.  The helicopter scene is brilliant...it is not about a set coming down from the ceiling, it is about the situation being portrayed, the lighting, the music, the orchestration, the emotion, the feeling of pity for the people.  It is a great scene in a good musical.

[windowwaving]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 4:31pm

When I look back and think about how drastically my own politics, opinions have changed in even just a few years, I can see how hers can change, especially since she's younger than me. 

She was also chosen to audition for the role right after high school, not like she went to an open call. I don't think anyone would turn down the opportunity to audition for Cameron Mackintosh right after graduating. And as others have said, there are few roles for AAPI actresses on stage, much less a starring lead role. 

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 4:42pm

For those making the Madama Butterfly comparison, Miss Saigon is worsened by the specific and granular changes. Read those Kim lyrics and tell me it isn't an infantilizing, othering modern Orientalist fantasy. 

[Tag]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 4:49pm

VintageSnarker said: "For those making the Madama Butterfly comparison, Miss Saigon is worsened by the specific and granular changes. Read those Kim lyrics and tell me it isn't an infantilizing, othering modern Orientalist fantasy."

First off it's not modern, it is a period piece.  Second what you've described is exactly what they are trying to show.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 5:06pm

I mean modern as in post-1900s China doll, geisha girl, waifu colonialist fantasy. What are they trying to show by reproducing a stereotype and making that her whole character? 

[Ravenclaw]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 5:13pm

The critiques of Miss Saigon are nothing new to do with "woke culture" as they have existed for as long as the show has existed. This review from 30 years ago lays out many of the points that people are still talking about today: https://www.villagevoice.com/2019/04/23/the-review-that-almost-toppled-civilization/

That said, I also think a major part of the problems with Miss Saigon are not those that the show itself makes but rather missing pieces of context, and the problems would be fewer if it weren't the only major musical centering Asian characters, but one of many stories in which AAPI people are able to lead rich, diverse lives. But when the context is instead The King & I, South Pacific, Flower Drum Song, etc. it adds up to a much larger problem. Many of the issues frequently brought up with Miss Saigon--namely, the painting of characters in broad, generalized strokes, the subjugation of the female characters to the male gaze as sex workers, and the general commodification of suffering--are things that the writers do just as much in Les Miserables, but the stakes of representing French people on Broadway are much lower.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 5:35pm

Whether true or not, we can move past these kinds of depictions of Asian people. Just like Black people can do more than play slaves or servants, Asian women can be more than submissive sex workers against their will. You try playing that kind of role for your entire career; it takes its toll. White people love Miss Saigon and The King and I much more than Asian people do.

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 6:20pm

I liked Miss Saigon when I first saw it and I still like much of the score. That being said I have evolved over time and can’t view it the same way.

People who call Miss Saigon “true” and “not sugar coated” are often people who are blind to their privilege and often white. If people have empathy for Kim and the other women then they don’t understand the problem with the musical. They don’t see the white savior aspects of the show.

I had a similar reaction during Priscilla to Cynthia. Actually in that case I was unnerved. I was unsure if that character would be included in the musical and if she was I assumed she would be cast colorblind and portrayed as a stripper type. But no they went full “me love you long time” mode and I found it really insulting. Anyone can shoot ping pong balls. She doesn’t need to be a caricature Asian woman. I felt bad for Elaine Marcos.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 6:20pm

Also, Miss Saigon has been preserved professionally. We don't have to keep remounting it in person.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 6:25pm

There was this from 2018, too (from a former Toronto cast member):
https://www.cbc.ca/arts/25-years-ago-miss-saigon-gave-me-my-big-break-25-years-later-would-i-be-protesting-it-1.4678805

The show means the world to me. But in this age of #representationmatters, it is just not good enough for the people on stage to be diverse. It is just not good enough to hear generic Asian-flavoured western music pass for the music of a people and region. It is just not good enough for the story of a culturally specific group be told, composed, created and performed by people who are not of that culture.

[JSquared2]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 7:07pm

LizzieCurry said: "Also, Miss Saigon has been preserved professionally. We don't have to keep remounting it in person."

Wow. 

[gypsy101]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 7:24pm

it took her 7 years after playing the role to realize it’s a problematic show??? girl

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 7:32pm

So for those comparing about the “white savior” complex, did Chris actually save anyone? Do you actually think Choi would have a great life in the States, now that her mother is dead and the rift between Chris and Ellen is likely going to tear them apart? Doesn’t the show ultimately renounce the white savior stereotype?

[Mr. Wormwood]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 8:49pm

I feel like almost any show can be mounted with the right context and the right vision. I don't think just never having the show done again is the answer. We've seen shows with problematic elements like South Pacific or Oklahoma or My Fair Lady or Carousel (not the 2018 one) contextualized and given a fresh lens. There were varying degrees of success with those examples but it can be done. That's the beauty of theatre and it can be done with this show too I believe. I agree that having an Asian or Asian American creative team would be one way I'd love to see Miss Saigon tackled. I don't think just doing the same old version of the production is the answer but just not doing it is not the answer either IMO. I know it's not an all time great work of theatre but I think it has enough good qualities that it's worth looking at with a different lens down the road. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 10:04pm

CATSNYrevival said: "Madama Butterfly is still around. Miss Saigon will likely be revived again someday too."

Was literally about to post this. We're in a weird Victorian/Puritan period where showing troubling issues--even if the point is that this is troubling, not okay or acceptable--pushes intense buttons. We will get past this, as we have before. And then it will come back, as it always does. Everything is cycles. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 10:09pm

LizzieCurry said: "HogansHero said: "The difference with something like this is that we are in the midst of a cultural revolution, white male dominance is ebbing, and those with a stake in it are kicking and screaming."

Just wanted to make sure people don't miss this as the thread hopefully doesn't descend into dreck."

Sure, the current world power structure just screams "end of white male dominance" lol. Not sure why you don't want anyone to miss the comment, as it is at worst kinda bonkers, at best wishful thinking. There was a lot of this talk in the 70's, too. When change happens, I'll believe it. Not until then. 

Miss Saigon is a period piece, anyway. Always was.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 10:51pm

Let’s not forget most high-profile productions of Madame Butterfly are boycotted because they usually feature singers in yellowface.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 10:51pm

^QED

 

[unclevictor]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 10:56pm

Miss Saigon is a period piece.
Vietnam.
No white savior.
It has beautiful music.
Say what u want about the book.
Just get over it.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 10:59pm

^QED

[MikeInTheDistrict]

Posted: 4/25/21 at 11:35pm

Is it fair to keep asking Asian performers to portray themselves in a demeaning light for the entertainment of mostly white audiences and to line the pockets of white men like Mackintosh, Boublil, and Schoenberg? Miss Saigon does not have enough artistic merit to justify it, IMO. 

Updated On: 4/25/21 at 11:35 PM

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 12:52am

gypsy101 said: "it took her 7 years after playing the role to realize it’s a problematic show??? girl"

It's taking some people on message boards a lot longer, TBH

[Ravenclaw]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 2:03am

For whatever it's worth, Nicholas Hytner, the director of the original production (though certainly not the final authority on the subject) has this to say in his memoir Balancing Acts:

"I'm not crazy, in retrospect, about the scenes in Miss Saigon that conveyed, accurately enough, the putrid atmosphere of the bars. I hurled everything I knew about staging at a script that had very little in the way of stage directions; the result had a relish that sometimes crossed the line into vulgarity. Clubs, bars and brothels have become staples of musical theatre. Some shows are aware that they aren't necessarily good news for the women who are supposed to work there, but musicals always want it both ways. What's not to like, they say, about a beautiful chorus girl in a bikini? Though please feel free to deplore the men who pay for her."

I think that's a good way of putting it--while yes, the show does condemn the sleaziness of the white men and encourage empathy with the Vietnamese women in the piece, the reality is more complex than that. 

As for this idea of "truth" in representing history, I think that if truthful historical representation was the highest priority for the creatives, they wouldn't have engaged in yellow-face in casting the original production.

There's a lot that I like in Miss Saigon--the spectacular stagecraft and the stirring pop ballads--but it's important to understand how this piece has been received by the people it represents and the people who have done the work of putting it onstage.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 3:10am

Ravenclaw said: "I think that's a good way of putting it--while yes, the show does condemn the sleaziness of thewhite men and encourage empathy with the Vietnamese women in the piece, the reality is more complex than that.

As for this idea of "truth" in representing history, I think that if truthful historical representation was the highestpriority for the creatives, they wouldn't have engaged in yellow-face in casting the original production."

I want to note that I'm criticizing Hytner's argument and not yours. I think that's a very convenient framing of "truth." Yes, the Vietnam War happened. But none of these characters are real. So choices were being made by the creatives. Are there sex workers in LA? Yes. Does that make Pretty Woman "truthful"? Bipolar disorder exists. Does that make Next to Normal "truthful"? Female slaves being tasked with childrearing doesn't make the mammy stereotype true. The problem is the depiction of the characters and the chosen narratives. 

[Fan123]

Posted: 4/26/21 at 4:20am

The whole white saviour thing is complicated in this show because while ultimately I think the show is saying that the white saviour 'dream' is bogus, the main characters do buy into it for much of the show. I think it's meant to be a flaw in the characters, not a strength. While personally I don't think the show has to be retired, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more adjustments or liberties taken to see how they would work. For example, stage the Dreamland dancing with screens to largely hide the dancers' scantily-clad bodies from the audience, with the implication that only the soldiers immediately adjacent to each one have paid for the privilege to see her private 'show'. Or what if Kim's last few lines were a bit more, I don't know, 'A Doll's House'-esque and she basically said "Thanks for nothing, a-hole" or some in-character equivalent. Maybe it wouldn't work at all, but something like that might be interesting to see attempted someday. On the flipside, while I like the show on the whole, I think it has had a pretty decent amount of exposure and success relative to its quality over the years, so I'm not begging for this to happen anytime soon.