Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:22am
It's like I said earlier... the moment I knew something was REALLY up was when Oak started tweeting nice things the other day about the cast, a full week out from his closing... It seemed very defensive. Like I said, I've seen many actors suck up to a cast they treated like sh*t once they realize people might be talking behind their back.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:32am
PaulWom said: "The allegation that Oak was behind a lot of the social media outrage that helped doom the show, specifically Rafael Casal's twitter storm."
Two reactions: first, I don't know and you don't know, unless you choose to believe a few people who don't like Oak (maybe justified, maybe because of some ugly things I don't want to accuse them of) and a gossip columnist for a Murdoch rag who has a terrible record for reliability. second, so what? let's suppose it is 100% true? How does that relate to anything other than the twitterverse? Sometimes I think we miss the forest for the trees.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:35am
"as usual, Riedel is half right and half wrong."
As usual, Hogan doesn't elaborate.
Nothing against you, Hogan, I actually think your opinions and facts are usually quite interesting but in this case (and for the entire Comet debacle) what's the point in posting that if you're not going to expand on it? To show you know more than all of us?
Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:45am
Yikes. Definitely gasped at that second tweet.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:55am
Sally Durant Plummer said: Nothing against you, Hogan, I actually think your opinions and facts are usually quite interesting but in this case (and for the entire Comet debacle) what's the point in posting that if you're not going to expand on it? To show you know more than all of us?"
Actually, I guess I was giving everyone too much credit because it seemed so obvious to me. 
But here goes, the first several paragraphs [my comments in brackets]
“Natasha, Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812,” the acclaimed Broadway musical engulfed in a racial firestorm, will close Sept. 3, The Post has learned. The cast and crew were told shortly before the curtain went up on Tuesday night’s performance. [true]
The closing is a direct result of the social-media backlash following the announcement that Mandy Patinkin would replace a black actor in one of the title roles. [false. I have explained why this causation is wrong, and while some disagree, here it is stated as fact.]
The “Homeland” star withdrew after several prominent actors of color tweeted their fury that he was replacing Okieriete “Oak” Onaodowan as Pierre. The Web site Broadway Black took up the charge, writing, “it raises questions about how Black actors are valued and treated within Broadway.” [part true, part false. that is NOT the reason he gave for withdrawing. He said it was because he did not understand what was going on, i.e., that Oak was being fired for him to get the gig.]
But sources say that the charges of racism were unfair and ultimately destructive. They say that after Patinkin declined, producers scrambled to line up another star, to no avail. [true and false. some sources surely said that but many others would have said just the opposite if asked.]
I think this backs up my generalization.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:56am
Sally Durant Plummer said: ""
Nothing against you, Hogan,[...] what's the point in posting [...] To show you know more than all of us?
Fixed it for you. This. It's always this.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 1:59am
Cynthia Erivo shouldn't be allowed to walk away from this either, she's as much at fault along with Oak
Posted: 8/9/17 at 2:00am
If the ridiculous twitter backlash never happened falsely accusing the show racism, then Mandy would have come in and assuming they didn't get a replacement for him closed shortly after - thereby extending the show an extra 1-2 weeks perhaps than currently? In an ideal situation they could have got a name to replace Mandy and extended the show further (which definitely would not have been possible after the backlash). While it's impossible to know exactly what effect the backlash had on the show, it may be small or large - surely we can be certain it has SOME effect.
And I want those thoughtless mindless ultra left-wing people to not get away with their ridiculous cry. They'll call anything racist these days (e.g., criticism of a certain religion - that has nothing to do with race - racism). They need to stop it now.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 2:03am
qolbinau said: "And I want those thoughtless mindless ultra left-wing people to not get away with their ridiculous cry. They'll call anything racist these days (e.g., criticism of a certain religion - that has nothing to do with race - racism). They need to stop it now."
Exactly. Like Celia Mei Rubin wrote in the post I shared earlier, "We have this special thing in this country called Freedom of Speech and with that comes great responsibility. Words affect and are affecting. Words like 'racist' should be reserved for those who truly are that, or the word loses weight and gravitas for when it's really needed and warranted. Using it carelessly has harmful and hurtful repercussions."
This was neither the time nor the place to scream "racist!," and in doing so, these people end up damaging the term and lessening its resonance when it is the time and place.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 2:20am
maybe it would be nice if folks who have actually experienced racism (blatant or systemic) were having their perspective illuminated here instead of just those who have not but think they are in a position to guard against the overuse of a label they only know second hand.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 2:28am
What a mess. And a damn shame.
Yes, the producers deserve much of the blame, as the buck stops with them. But yes, the backlash is what did it in this way. Had it been simply a firing/replacement, Riedel certainly would have reported on it, and perhaps Patinkin would have still left (though, who knows?). But the show is closing because they can't get a star now, and the talent wouldn't likely have stayed away from a simple firing. Hell, Henry Goodman was famously fired from The Producers and that show replaced him just fine - for a while. It was the backlash that made the production toxic to any possible replacement.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 2:31am
rosscoe(au) said: "Cynthia Erivo shouldn't be allowed to walk away from this either, she's as much at fault along with Oak
"
Her fans protect her from reality. 2 people I know called her out in a non aggressive way and her fans were on them fast and she blocked them both within an hour.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 2:32am
"maybe it would be nice if folks who have actually experienced racism (blatant or systemic) were having their perspective illuminated here instead of just those who have not but think they are in a position to guard against the overuse of a label they only know second hand. "
It might be nice but I don't see how that has any relevance to this argument - in fact in the case of the twitter backlash it seems like first-hand experience of racism might in some cases make one less able to detect whether it is happening or not (in this specific case there appears to be an emotional reaction clouding judgement).
This whole thing is frustrating because it reflects a wider intellectual sickness with liberal views and thought these days, which is embarrassing as a person who identifies as a liberal/progressive person. We seem to be a very confused bunch of people. We call anything racist or sexist or bigoted yet are incredibly bigoted in our views about ultra-left wing principles. We try to stop people speaking at universities or shout over the top of them. We claim we are progressive yet adopt the most conservative, right-wing, fascist belief systems in our platform and stop those who are a vicim of this platform from criticising it by claiming they are racist or bigoted (and the victims are often exactly the people they are meant to care about). Ultra left-wing and ultra right-wing views these days seem to have a lot of similarities in how they deal with the truth (they don't) or interact with others that don't share their views. It's crazy. Enough is enough.
Updated On: 8/9/17 at 02:32 AM
Posted: 8/9/17 at 3:33am
This tea is so hot, I can't even sleep... How long until Ryan Murphy buys the rights for his next season of Feud?
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:02am
Without the scandal and with Mandy's run, the show could have maintained the image of being a hit with buzz. It would have therefore been easier to confirm a bigger name for September. The general public would have been blissfully unaware of the struggles the show- like many big productions sometimes face.
However, when the mask slipped, yep, the vultures descended. No escape.
I'll take my tea with plenty of sugar.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:06am
If, I mean IF, this article is true, I wonder whether Chavkin would insist Mandy "play it as written, reminding him repeatedly that he was a 'replacement'" and how she would feel if Many would end up not being able to play the piano and accordion parts.
Updated On: 8/9/17 at 04:06 AM
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:10am
I'm going to regret posting anything about this with the closing notice news so fresh, but here goes...
First off, I loved the show. Saw it in April. I have, nonetheless, tried to separate my fandom from my analysis of the musical's prospects and the decisions made by the producers and creatives.
- The blessing and curse of Josh Groban. Without him, the show would not have made it to Broadway. And he delivered what I thought was a fine performance. But Groban, who I didn't know much about before seeing the musical, has a very mainstream fan base. He was never edgy, or avant garde, and didn't try to be; he's just really popular. Bringing him in as the star of Great Comet attracted a built-in mainstream audience to a show that was, as creator Dave Malloy acknowledged, "weird." The other primary audience for the musical were people who like edgy, challenging, interesting theater that promised a unique experience. They had heard about the show, or had seen it before, or read the mostly favorable reviews. It was the cool, un-Broadway show, on Broadway. These two audiences basically had nothing in common, except for the Great Comet fans who saw Groban's performance and were impressed, and the Groban fans who liked the show despite its quirks.
The other problem is that Groban, even though he delivered an audience, didn't deliver a large enough audience. That wasn't all his fault. The show wasn't built around him. A Groban fan who expected a bunch of solos by him was bound to be disappointed, despite the addition of "Dust and Ashes." He's inactive for significant portions of the show. And while I disagree with Jesse Green's critical review of the musical, he's right when saying that every performer is "made highly attractive except him." He's wearing a fat suit! The character who gets the rock star entrance isn't his Pierre, but Anatole. And Groban, for all his popularity, isn't at Bette Midler's level, especially in a Broadway show.
- If the producers did any planning for the show's post-Groban future, they hid it well. The Kagans, for reasons I have yet to see adequately explained, hired Okieriete Onaodowan, best known for his supporting role in Hamilton, to be Groban's replacement. They made a big deal out of hiring him, even though it was a temporary gig that would last two months. What next? No word. Maybe the clever Kagans are concealing a big name so people don't skip Onaodowan and wait for an actual star. Or maybe they're hoping some Hamilton fans will be really eager to see Hercules Mulligan as Pierre and they'll be set. Or maybe the show will win a Tony and the Pierre casting won't matter so much. That already seemed doubtful in February, with Dear Evan Hansen getting rave reviews and a bunch of shows yet to open, but hope seemed to be the plan.
And then that didn't pan out. I didn't realize it at the time, but the producers were already scrambling. They sent Brittain Ashford on a "vacation" and brought in Ingrid Michaelson as Sonya to goose the box office after Groban's departure. They knew, long before Groban left, that they had a non-Tony winner for Best Musical and a big box office hole to fill. Onaodowan could be the greatest Pierre ever. It wasn't going to matter, because he couldn't sell tickets, and they faced the daunting prospect of a fall without a star - and an exodus of much of the beloved if unknown original cast in October. Here's what I want to know: Did the Kagans have a big-star Pierre lined up for September who suddenly backed out after the fiasco, or did they never have anyone?
- Like every failed Broadway show, an insufficient number of people wanted to see Great Comet no matter who was in it. This was the one show I got tickets before my New York trip, a week in advance. And it was really easy. Front mezzanine, discounted tickets. Wonderful seats. And Groban was in the show. I had to sweat it out for Dear Evan Hansen tickets, paid full price, and felt fortunate. I liked Great Comet a lot more, but other shows had more better word of mouth, even star-less musicals like Come From Away. Great Comet was never a dud. It probably made money every week, unless the high cost estimates I've seen are off, but it needed to make a lot more. Mandy Patinkin was a temporary band-aid.
- Great Comet is a cult musical with a big budget. I wish more people loved the show as much as I did, but it didn't catch fire. And it was too expensive to run without a star. I have been disappointed with the behavior of some players in this, and a few peripheral people, and I may be more disappointed if more information comes out. But the show, like the comet, just wasn't destined for a long Broadway life, especially with some pretty obvious mistakes having been made by the producers.
Updated On: 8/9/17 at 04:10 AM
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:17am
What? No one was expecting Groban to deliver a Midler audience. He did exactly what he was supposed to and kept the show going as long as he was there. Not even Midler could keep a show going after she leaves. I have seen Groban sing before and I love his voice (I'm not a big fan as I generally hate the material he chooses to sing, except the musical theatre songs). I was not expecting much from his acting, and as a great fan of War and Peace, he blew me away. He represented Pierre, the Pierre from the book, better than anyone else on the stage represented their characters (Anatole as a sex god? Please).
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:28am
HogansHero said: "maybe it would be nice if folks who have actually experienced racism (blatant or systemic) were having their perspective illuminated here instead of just those who have not but think they are in a position to guard against the overuse of a label they only know second hand."
Well I'm a black and Asian woman who has experienced both blatant and systemic racism and I have a problem with the r-word getting thrown around in such a fashion as this. Oak clearly pulled the race card here in a situation where the decision was purely business. He attacked allies who were supporting diversity in theatre. That hurts us. It creates a divide and I would rather like to not go back to that. Now it's a risky decision to cast a performer of color. This whole thing was awful for diversity and was all caused by a loud mouthed white boy on twitter who thinks he can speak for us. No thanks Casal. We're perfectly capable of speaking for ourselves. He just really wants to be the white savior here.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:38am
cam5y, don't get me wrong. I thought Josh Groban was a terrific, moving Pierre from beginning to end.
From a producing perspective, it created a problem for what they would do after he left. It wasn't a secret that he was leaving in early July. And without the Tony for Best Musical or great word of mouth, Great Comet was going to need another star who could play Pierre to attract a large enough audience given the show's high costs. They never found one, and the replacement they did choose was a disaster whose selection never made any sense in the first place.
Updated On: 8/9/17 at 04:38 AM
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:42am
Sure, I don't disagree with that. But it makes no sense to say that Groban "didn't deliver a large enough audience" when he clearly did. He can't be blamed for the failings of the show itself or its producers.
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:44am
It's so ridiculous that an elevated ensemble member of HAMILTON, whose name nobody knows outside of this forum, CYNTHIA ERIVO's twitter feed and the now-pink-slipped IMPERIAL, could cause so much drama!!
I made my tea piping hot this morning and I will damn well sip it... ugh ... so annoyed right now
Posted: 8/9/17 at 4:57am
I'd love to know how Phillipa Soo feels about all of this considering she has the Great Comet connection, she has the Oak/Hamilton connection and she's a woman of color so has that perspective too. Would be interesting.
