"Sweeney Todd" Tobias: Man vs. Child?

I have never seen a production, so I can't answer your initial question, but I think it works better to have a child as Tobey due to the death of innocence he goes through. In the beginning, he is this kid who wants to better himself and Ms. Lovett.....but at the end, he is the one that kills Sweeney. I think that loss of innocence doesn't come off as strongly with an adult, even if he is a "man child."

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Updated On: 8/15/10 at 01:45 PM

Even if you cast Toby as a young boy, you need another boy/girl (seen it as both but works best with a girl) for the 2nd Act Johanna when Sweeney doesn't kill a customer cause his child is with him.

I don't know, I've seen productions of Sweeney more than I've seen the movie (which I've only seen twice), so I don't really care who Toby is as long as he gets everything right. I think the problem in having a child ala the film is that getting him to stretch that performance out consistently could be trickier than on film where you can cut and coach as you're filming.

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So you think maybe this was started more as a measure to secure an actor in the role and not have to worry about a 12 or 13 year old's voice and appearance rapidly changing and having to recast as often making it closer to why a female is cast as Peter Pan than an artistic choice?

Any Hal Prince or Sondheim quotes on the topic?

We actually popped the movie in this weekend. It was my 2nd time watching the movie. My problem is that you didn't really feel the full devastation that toby went through at the end. I thought that Burton's omission of the "...mark him with a bee..." "Poem" that Toby says at the end of the stage production was a mistake. It would have shown that Toby most likely went crazy.

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I prefer the young simple man in the role, mainly because I like the more mature voice singing the role. It still works with a kid, but not as well for me. It does make for an interesting dynamic though.

Toby is far from innocent. As soon as he takes off his wig you see that he is just as twisted as everyone else. He just happens to be 'younger'

I think Toby is best played as a child, but maybe not by a child. I never thought that he was slow, just a child, early double digits. When I watched the filmed one with Angela Lansbury I just thought, "Oh, he's a child played by an older man." Granted, I didn't realize the original that old.

I’d prefer to see a fully grown teenager/man with the mind of a child play Toby. It adds to the darkness of the piece. Seeing an actual twelve year old sing “Not While I’m Around” to Lovett in the film was a little too precious and not disturbing enough for that particular moment. No stage production should ever try to emulate the film. It’s just not worthy.

"I’d prefer to see a fully grown teenager/man with the mind of a child play Toby. It adds to the darkness of the piece. Seeing an actual twelve year old sing “Not While I’m Around” to Lovett in the film was a little too precious and not disturbing enough for that particular moment."

I could not possibly disagree more; for me, the age is what made it particularly disturbing in the movie. Lovett's relationship with Toby makes so much more sense in the film than in any stage version I've seen. That beat at the end of the song when Lovett looks up and you know that she knows what she has to do is completely chilling, and also heartbreaking.

I also disagree with the earlier post saying that Toby's little mad scene at the end ("Razor, razor! Cut cut cut!") shouldn't have been cut. First of all, in the language of film, it would have seemed silly in that moment. But more importantly, in the film, Toby does not necessarily need to go crazy in order to kill Todd. The fact that it was so intentional and methodical makes it compelling in a different way. It works because in the movie (to me, for the first time ever), his protectiveness of and feeling of family with Mrs. Lovett makes sense and it's an act of revenge. Just like Sweeney's entire life became revenge when his family was taken from him. If anything, I think it's a stronger artistic choice. It's a slightly different one, but it worked beautifully for the film.

Updated On: 8/16/10 at 03:18 PM

I saw an ameteur production at a local theatre and was most impressed to see a young boy of 13 as the understudy for Tobias. However, the person who actually played the part for that particular evening was a young lady of 17.

Her voice was very boyish in it's tone so it worked nicely but it was her acting skill that made her performance something extaordinary. The little mad scene in particular was incredible. I shivered at the haunting expression and errie voice as she sang "patty cake...Patty cake...Bakers man..." picking up the razor lying on the floor of the higher level of the set.

Then, dragging her feet, shoulders hunched, she slowly walked towards the stairs.

"Make me a pie" came in as the razor scraped against the rail of the stairs.

she got to the line "Mr Todd" as she reached the bottom stair.

After a very emotional delivery of the "You shouldn't hurt nobody" line Sweeney knocked her over.

That's when the razor falls just out of her reach.

"Razor...Razor" the same errie, sing song voice resonates through the theatre as she reaches for it in an unco'ordinated fashion, not even looking up.

"cut...cut..." she slowly stood up and on the last cut she slices Sweeney's throat.

A disturbing but brilliant performance that had me very much freaked out and that is coming from a fan of the Saw movies.

My point at the end of this is that a man couldn't do that and have the same effect. A boy with exceptional talent may have been able to pull it off but then again it may be a stretch for an emotionally immature young actor. I put it to you that if a boy can not play the part perhaps the right young woman could pull it off nicely if they have the right voice.

Versions i've seen with a man doing a differant interpretation of the scene didn't give me chills but was more comical. It didn't capture the devistation that the version I saw in person did.

Tobias Ragg is/was a child in the original legend, and I thought it was very effective to have the film version go back to the original roots of the character. One of the few (or only) improvements the movie had over the stage show.

But Toby wasn't written as a child in the Sondheim musical. If you do the stage production, how does a kid sing it? Are the keys changed for him (and everyone who sings with him)? It seems complicated.

But given a preference, I think the story works better (and always has) when he is a child.

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I'm partial to a young man playing the role. I agree that when it's played by a boy, the tendency is to think, "aw...isn't that cute?".

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