"Sweeney Todd" Tobias: Man vs. Child?

[BroadwayBenny]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 12:01pm

At a recent local audition they opened up the starting age for Tobias at 12 years and older. The ONLY version I have ever seen take the sweet little kid route was of course the Tim Burton movie. Every time I have seen it on stage it has been a simple minded adult male in his 30's (Ken Jennings, Neil Patrick Harris, Manoel Felciano).

My question is, has there ever been a legit stage version that has used the little boy "vision" that I happened to miss and not know about...and did it work?

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 1:45pm

I have never seen a production, so I can't answer your initial question, but I think it works better to have a child as Tobey due to the death of innocence he goes through. In the beginning, he is this kid who wants to better himself and Ms. Lovett.....but at the end, he is the one that kills Sweeney. I think that loss of innocence doesn't come off as strongly with an adult, even if he is a "man child."

Updated On: 8/15/10 at 01:45 PM

[jacobsnchz14]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 1:56pm

In a production I saw there was a young child in the ensemble during the opening scene, so my friends and I assumed it was Toby. Then when the scene with Pirelli started, a young man ended up playing Toby. My friends (who were only familiar with the film) were often confused with there being a kid (the only little boy onstage) and a man in the same scene because they thought Toby was always a child.

[Mildred Plotka]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 2:13pm

Even if you cast Toby as a young boy, you need another boy/girl (seen it as both but works best with a girl) for the 2nd Act Johanna when Sweeney doesn't kill a customer cause his child is with him.

I don't know, I've seen productions of Sweeney more than I've seen the movie (which I've only seen twice), so I don't really care who Toby is as long as he gets everything right. I think the problem in having a child ala the film is that getting him to stretch that performance out consistently could be trickier than on film where you can cut and coach as you're filming.

[backwoodsbarbie]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 2:16pm

This is kind of a strange thought but I think this character works best when the actor has the physical age of a man, but the look of a boy. The first person that comes to mind for me as fitting this physical description is Wesley Taylor, not that I think he should play the role, but I think that his look would be interesting.

[BroadwayBenny]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 2:23pm

So you think maybe this was started more as a measure to secure an actor in the role and not have to worry about a 12 or 13 year old's voice and appearance rapidly changing and having to recast as often making it closer to why a female is cast as Peter Pan than an artistic choice?

Any Hal Prince or Sondheim quotes on the topic?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 5:50pm

All I know is, the decision to cast Toby so young absolutely madee the Tim Burton movie. I'd never seen his relationship with Mrs. Lovett more fully formed and devastating. I thought it was the backbone of the whole film.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/15/10 at 8:20pm

We actually popped the movie in this weekend. It was my 2nd time watching the movie. My problem is that you didn't really feel the full devastation that toby went through at the end. I thought that Burton's omission of the "...mark him with a bee..." "Poem" that Toby says at the end of the stage production was a mistake. It would have shown that Toby most likely went crazy.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 1:30am

Even if you cast Toby as a young boy, you need another boy/girl (seen it as both but works best with a girl) for the 2nd Act Johanna when Sweeney doesn't kill a customer cause his child is with him.

Productions actually cast children for that scene alone? What a waste. When I've seen it, the would-be victim has just brought a woman with him.

I prefer Toby as a child. It never seemed to fit with Mrs. Lovett's character to have the patience and compassion to deal with a mentally challenged adult Toby.

Updated On: 8/16/10 at 01:30 AM

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 1:44am

I prefer the young simple man in the role, mainly because I like the more mature voice singing the role. It still works with a kid, but not as well for me. It does make for an interesting dynamic though.

[ColorTheHours048]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 1:52am

There are pros and cons to both. With a small boy, you add a layer of innocence to Toby that not even a mental slowness can provide. But you also lose out on some vocal prowess. With a slow adult man, you add the fact that Toby is physically incapable of being independent and never will be. It makes his relationship with Lovett more tragic, in my opinion, to have him finally be with someone who accepts him and then have that ripped away. But you also lose out on the "innocence lost" arch that I think makes Toby killing Todd so much more impactful.

I don't think I have a favorite. I just think it changes a big part of the show drastically depending on how you do it, so that needs to be taken into account when directing the show.

[chewy5000]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 4:35am

Toby is far from innocent. As soon as he takes off his wig you see that he is just as twisted as everyone else. He just happens to be 'younger'

[jimmycurry01]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 4:47am

I don't know that I agree with that. He could very well be doing what he is told to do by wearing the wig and touting the miracle elixir, and nothing more than that. Pirelli is his caretaker and he will do whatever Toby will do whatever he says to keep him happy, whether he really understands why or not.
Toby is really a fantastic character and I think there is a lot of depth to explore there.

[Edna Turnblad]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 7:03am

I think Toby is best played as a child, but maybe not by a child. I never thought that he was slow, just a child, early double digits. When I watched the filmed one with Angela Lansbury I just thought, "Oh, he's a child played by an older man." Granted, I didn't realize the original that old.

[darquegk]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 9:46am

I've seen him as a child, I've seen him as a slow young man, and in one remarkably disturbing production, as a large, hulking man-child with obvious mental problems. Picture Ethan Supplee from Mallrats, My Name Is Earl or American History X, and you'll know sort of what it looked like.

[Broadwayboy2631]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 10:44am

I’d prefer to see a fully grown teenager/man with the mind of a child play Toby. It adds to the darkness of the piece. Seeing an actual twelve year old sing “Not While I’m Around” to Lovett in the film was a little too precious and not disturbing enough for that particular moment. No stage production should ever try to emulate the film. It’s just not worthy.

[darquegk]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 11:31am

I think a few things- notably a few of the design choices- were worth in the film and may go on to be iconic. In particular, the way Lovett's famous buns are so often emulated, I've seen Sweeney's vest and single white streak of hair quite a few times now.

It could be just an exposure thing. Sweeney's suspenders weren't exactly iconic, they were just what he typically wore. Lovett's hair was so idiosyncratic and unique that it DID become iconic, and now Sweeney has a famous image to match.

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 3:18pm

"I’d prefer to see a fully grown teenager/man with the mind of a child play Toby. It adds to the darkness of the piece. Seeing an actual twelve year old sing “Not While I’m Around” to Lovett in the film was a little too precious and not disturbing enough for that particular moment."

I could not possibly disagree more; for me, the age is what made it particularly disturbing in the movie. Lovett's relationship with Toby makes so much more sense in the film than in any stage version I've seen. That beat at the end of the song when Lovett looks up and you know that she knows what she has to do is completely chilling, and also heartbreaking.

I also disagree with the earlier post saying that Toby's little mad scene at the end ("Razor, razor! Cut cut cut!") shouldn't have been cut. First of all, in the language of film, it would have seemed silly in that moment. But more importantly, in the film, Toby does not necessarily need to go crazy in order to kill Todd. The fact that it was so intentional and methodical makes it compelling in a different way. It works because in the movie (to me, for the first time ever), his protectiveness of and feeling of family with Mrs. Lovett makes sense and it's an act of revenge. Just like Sweeney's entire life became revenge when his family was taken from him. If anything, I think it's a stronger artistic choice. It's a slightly different one, but it worked beautifully for the film. Updated On: 8/16/10 at 03:18 PM

[bwayfan7000]

Posted: 8/16/10 at 3:36pm

In a recent production I saw, the Toby was one of the two youngest in the production. He was 18 but played younger, and it really worked well. And, for the record, the other young person was a girl who played the kid who goes with her father to Sweeney's shop. She was young enough to play the kid, but old enough to be in the rest of the ensemble numbers as well.

[Angebex]

Posted: 5/29/11 at 6:17am

I saw an ameteur production at a local theatre and was most impressed to see a young boy of 13 as the understudy for Tobias. However, the person who actually played the part for that particular evening was a young lady of 17.

Her voice was very boyish in it's tone so it worked nicely but it was her acting skill that made her performance something extaordinary. The little mad scene in particular was incredible. I shivered at the haunting expression and errie voice as she sang "patty cake...Patty cake...Bakers man..." picking up the razor lying on the floor of the higher level of the set.

Then, dragging her feet, shoulders hunched, she slowly walked towards the stairs.

"Make me a pie" came in as the razor scraped against the rail of the stairs.

she got to the line "Mr Todd" as she reached the bottom stair.

After a very emotional delivery of the "You shouldn't hurt nobody" line Sweeney knocked her over.

That's when the razor falls just out of her reach.

"Razor...Razor" the same errie, sing song voice resonates through the theatre as she reaches for it in an unco'ordinated fashion, not even looking up.

"cut...cut..." she slowly stood up and on the last cut she slices Sweeney's throat.

A disturbing but brilliant performance that had me very much freaked out and that is coming from a fan of the Saw movies.

My point at the end of this is that a man couldn't do that and have the same effect. A boy with exceptional talent may have been able to pull it off but then again it may be a stretch for an emotionally immature young actor. I put it to you that if a boy can not play the part perhaps the right young woman could pull it off nicely if they have the right voice.

Versions i've seen with a man doing a differant interpretation of the scene didn't give me chills but was more comical. It didn't capture the devistation that the version I saw in person did.

[ahhrealmonsters]

Posted: 5/29/11 at 10:49am

I agree with Edna. I always thought it like that- an adult playing a child, ala Spelling Bee.

I saw the show at NYU this past year (superb production) where everyone was early 20s, so a young looking 21-22 year-old played Tobias against a 25 year-old (grad student) Lovett.

Just thinking of adults with boyish faces- Bobby Steggert as Tobias? I think he could pull it off.

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/29/11 at 11:11am

Tobias Ragg is/was a child in the original legend, and I thought it was very effective to have the film version go back to the original roots of the character. One of the few (or only) improvements the movie had over the stage show.

But Toby wasn't written as a child in the Sondheim musical. If you do the stage production, how does a kid sing it? Are the keys changed for him (and everyone who sings with him)? It seems complicated.

But given a preference, I think the story works better (and always has) when he is a child.

[ahhrealmonsters]

Posted: 5/29/11 at 12:21pm

I've also always found it confusing/strange when Tobias and Anthony are the same age... Or maybe that's the point...

[dramamama611]

Posted: 5/29/11 at 12:33pm

I'm partial to a young man playing the role. I agree that when it's played by a boy, the tendency is to think, "aw...isn't that cute?".

[hyperbole_and_a_half]

Posted: 5/29/11 at 1:44pm

My first role was Tobias (I was a teenager and this was way before the film). Since the original Tobias was older, his performance included a limp, and it was recorded for posterity in the Hearn/Lansbury video, my director said it had become fashionable to play Tobias as a mildly retarded man-child. My director, however, was familiar with Sweeney throughout all his incarnations going back to "String of Pearls" and insisted that Tobias was merely a naive young man, if perhaps a bit blinkered, maybe even willingly so.

It was very important for the director to feel that Tobias had been conditioned by years of abuse to be codependent and drawn toward adults that would inevitably mistreat him. During table work, he went into a lengthy story from his childhood regarding a neighbor that would beat his dog. One day he saw his neighbor kick the dog so hard that it flew a few feet. It must've broken the dog's hind legs or hips or something because the dog could only drag itself by its front two limbs. The director said he watched in horror as the dog, whimpering, eventually dragged itself back to its master's feet and started to lick his shoes. This made the neighbor very angry, and he picked the dog up by its collar and flung it inside the house, where it landed with a sickening sound. That was the last time he saw the dog. Needless to say, all of us around the table were speechless. After a beat, he pointed across the table at me and said "Matt, you are that dog." It was a portentous welcome to the theatre!