Bridge & Tunnel Crowd Can No Longer Be Counted On?

[Up In One]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 5:45pm

Old Bway wisdom always had B'Way audiences building is stages, 1) Locals 2) Bridge & Tunnel 3) Tourists. That Bridge and Tunnel crowd could be counted on to keep a show open a year while the rest of the world caught up. A 17% drop since pre-pandemic days - what does all this suggest for the Spring with its onslaught of productions, especially the musiclals?   

 

Broadway takes massive hit as NYC suburbanites steer clear over ‘safety concerns’

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 6:23pm

Just a heads up that the above link sends you to the NY Post, just in case you, like me, don’t care to give that right wing rag any hits. 

[quizking101]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 6:28pm

I honestly think the whole idea of a perceived lack of safety is being made out to be a bigger deal than it really is. (Especially coming from a conservative rag like the Post).

I never knew the NYC of the 70s and 80s when things were really seedy (per anecdotes of my parents) and unsafe. Now, aside from the relentless odor of cannabis, I don't really find any part of Midtown to be that bad - especially given the large police presence in the area. 

What is keeping people away is the raising of prices to such a level where, even a standard 30%-50% discount will still result in you paying over $100 on something that there is a possibility you may not like it based on the unknown. Gone are the days where people could drop a small dime for a day-of ticket for rush or TKTS, since those prices have also since inflated quite a bit as well. 

The new trend for shows I have noticed seems to be in the vein of what Mr. Saturday Night tried to pull in the beginning. They sold all of their seats, including the butt-end of the mezzanine, for a premium price (the cheapest seat was $199) and many people bought it, but then the bottom dropped out when the reviews came out. It reeked of greed and hubris, and many of my friends and I turned away toward other shows until they came to their senses (which they never really did, so we just waited for TDF).

[Impeach2017]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 6:44pm

Fascism is very insidious.  It gets its power from fear and hatred of the other.  

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 6:46pm

quizking101 said: "I honestly think the whole idea of a perceived lack of safety is being made out to be a bigger deal than it really is. (Especially coming from a conservative rag like the Post)."

Correct, but that word of mouth has spread, to the point where family from out of town genuinely ask me about the crime and immigration problems. I don't know how that perception goes away. It's bigger than Broadway.

Like the article and others have said, it's not just about so-called crime problems. It's costs (tix, dinner, parking, babysitter), general interest, and an increase of at-home entertainment options. As always, it's the mid-level and smaller shows that take the biggest hit; the big sellers have no trouble finding buyers from all over.

I also think the way certain shows have been advertised is very bad at attracting casual buyers. Leading with "Broadway's first musical about people with Autism" or "Adrienne Kennedy is finally getting a Broadway play" or "Broadway's first all-filipino cast" isn't a selling point to the masses. They. don't. care. People want to see a show because they think it will be good and worth their money/time, and some narratives are better suited for occasional mentions in the press, instead of in advertising.

[Musigamist]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 7:11pm

Having read the article, it presents the fact that overall crime is actually down, so that’s probably not the main  driver of the finding. The article ends with the assertion from David Wasserman and some “nation-wide survey” data that says that most people just aren’t interested with the shows being offered. Which goes back into what has been said here already—people want an assured good time at these current prices instead of risking a new, not-so-interesting sounding one.

[Broadway Flash]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 7:22pm

It’s not just right wing outlets. Have you watched ABC news recently? New York Times? All it does is talk about crime and the migrant crisis, and tolls, and all the city’s other problems. Can easily see suburbanites thinking, not going into that mess. This is what I’ve been talking about for years. The first order of business is to clean up midtown. Secondly, they should have a new campaign like they did back in the day. The I Love NY commercials. I love watching those online, even tho it was before my time.  They need to entice people to come into the city and see a show by making it look very fabulous. I hope the Tony Awards this year at Lincoln Center is a good look. 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 7:37pm

I'm in Chicago - which if you only watched the news you'd think we'd be in a war zone - but was just in NYC for a few days and the idea of crime never even entered my mind. Granted, I lived there for awhile, but I walked about the village and the bowery all hours of the evening and Hudson Yards to Times Square and felt fine. 

[Matt Rogers]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 7:43pm

Broadway Flash said: "It’s not just right wing outlets. Have you watched ABC news recently? New York Times? All it does is talk about crime and the migrant crisis, and tolls, and all the city’s other problems. Can easily see suburbanites thinking, not going into that mess. This is what I’ve been talking about for years. The first order of business is to clean up midtown. Secondly, they should have a new campaign like they did back in the day. The I Love NY commercials. I love watching those online, even tho it was before my time. They need to entice people to come into the city and see a show by making it look very fabulous. I hope the Tony Awards this year at Lincoln Center is a good look."

None of what you posted above is deterring the tourists, who were worse than ever this past holiday season. Our office holiday party was in a Times Square venue and when I came out of there at peak pre-theatre hour, it was a shoulder to shoulder mob scene. The only reason to avoid the Times Square theatre district area is to avoid the obnoxious tourists. 

Updated On: 1/3/24 at 07:43 PM

[Melissa25]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 7:44pm

I live in NYC but have to travel into Manhattan and am going to fewer Broadway shows now largely driven by cost.  I just don't think $185-$210 is a good investment in an unknown show.  I used to buy most of my Broadway tickets ahead of the season start, many with preview discounts for side orchestra seats. Now it is the opposite. I am not going to as many shows due to poor reviews /word of mouth.  I am also attending shows later in the run to reduce the risk to my investment.  My attendance has dropped also due to the lack of interesting shows that are available.  If I read about creatives involved in a labour of love, working on a piece for a few years then I am much more apt to invest my time and money.   It has been difficult adjusting to dynamic participation because I still consider myself a Broadway die-hard.  Luckily we have many theater options in this region.

[gibsons2]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 8:38pm

Melissa25 said: "I live in NYC but have to travel into Manhattan and am going to fewer Broadway shows now largely driven by cost. I just don't think $185-$210 is a good investment in an unknown show. I used to buy most of my Broadway tickets ahead of the season start, many with preview discounts for side orchestra seats. Now it is the opposite. I am not going to as many shows due to poor reviews /word of mouth. I am also attending shows later in the run to reduce the risk to my investment. My attendance has dropped also due to the lack of interesting shows that are available. If I read about creatives involved in a labour of love, working on a piece for a few years then I am much more apt to invest my time and money. It has been difficult adjusting to dynamic participation because I still consider myself a Broadway die-hard. Luckily we have many theater options in this region."

I have the same sentiments. I was always a preview kind of theater goer, but given that so many shows have been so disappointing lately, I now always wait for the WOM or show score reviews. Very rarely I purchase an advance ticket, only if I'm seeing a show because of a certain cast. Too much money spent on mediocre shows in the past two years, and even more valuable time. 

As to bridge and tunnel crowd, I think it all comes down to money. It became incredibly expensive just to feed a family of four and people prioritize.  Broadway is on very few people's top of the list. 

[ACL2006]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 9:26pm

Luckily, any show I've seen since Broadway reopened from the COVID shutdown, I won the lottery/rush or got SRO. I don't think most theatergoers are aware of lottery/rush. The average price of a Broadway ticket is the highest ever. The average person can't afford to see a Broadway show currently. The crime in the city isn't the issue. I feel safe going through the theater district and Times Square. Cops are everywhere. Probably conservatives are staying away due to the Faux News slander of liberal cities? Ultimately, if this crowd wants to come to NYC for a show, they'll do so.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 9:47pm

Most things go in cycles.  There are lousy seasons and there are spectacular seasons (and in-between).  I did take away one thing the article pointed to...people not having a lot of interest in the announced productions.  I have to concur.  When I was here in October, i had to settle on two slots because there was such a dearth of dramatic offerings.  Two of the things I settled on were seeing MR for the fourth time, and Wicked for the tenth(?) time because few of the new offerings (when I was actually going to be in the city) beyond the SS shows -- and, ironically, Harmony, which I really disliked -- held a lot of intrinsic interest. (NOTE: I also did see JaJa's and PV).

Now, looking ahead to Spring, I have only so far purchased tix to one show (Merrily for the second time) because nothing announced so far appeals enough to purchase in advance at regular prices. I will wait for the reviews and hope that a few more things are announced, like some new plays.  I would look forward to seeing Appropriate and Prayer, but both are planned as limited engagements.  

Re the safety issue, I do think that is overstated.  I was there in the 70s and, even in my 20s, I sometimes felt unsafe crossing 8th Avenue to go to the garage where I usually parked (only after I moved from Manhattan).  On the other hand, Times Square has become more and more congested, and I find myself planning in advance what route I am going to take from the hotel to the particular theatre to avoid as much of the really crowded area as possible.  Add those g--damned characters all over the place, and -- though safer -- it can be just as unpleasant as it was in the 70s.

But I don't believe that is a significant factor...right now I think it is the combination of expense, overall uninteresting inventory of new productions, and -- an outgrowth of COVID -- the impact of streaming services and the increasing quality of their offerings.  Finally, there is the 'non-wow factor' of the announced casts.  Unlike many of the people on this board (including me), a lot of the bridge and tunnel people only want to see SJP or Jessica Chastain or Laura Linney or Hugh Jackman or Josh or Denzel.  Even big stars like Nathan Lane or Audra MacDonald would be more in demand in a new musical (or maybe a great new American play for which they are originating their role).  Hopefully, Sutton Foster will be an exception to that rule, although we know ST is not going to have the grosses that Josh Groban commands.

Off-Broadway provides more options, but I will bet that the vast majority of bridge and tunnel people have never seen an off-Broadway production or -- if that is too hyperbolic a statement -- have rarely ventured out of the Broadway theatre district.

[broadfan327]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 10:41pm

I joined the bridge & tunnel crowd this year after living in Manhattan for seven years, and even though I still work in Manhattan a couple of days a week, I am not seeing as many shows as I used to, mainly because I think the quality overall of shows is way down.  If I read a new show has bad reviews from here and professional critics and see low grosses, I won't bother when previously I would try and see almost everything I could.

[James885]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 10:43pm

Like others, I think cost is a bigger factor for a lot of people right now, rather than perceived lack of safety. This is anecdotal, but a family member who makes an annual trip to NYC - and used to always see at least one show on her visit - passed up seeing a show this summer (Cursed Child) because the tickets prices were so high. When even rear mezzanine prices are nearly $200, it becomes untenable, especially for families. By contrast, touring productions are usually at least a bit cheaper so it may be more financially advantageous to see tours instead.

All that to say, there’s probably a confluence of reasons as to why Broadway is currently facing challenges with regard to the long term viability of its business model. Like others have said, the mega hits won’t be affected much, but mid-size and smaller shows with no star power and less brand recognition might face stronger headwinds.

Updated On: 1/3/24 at 10:43 PM

[Up In One]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 10:53pm

I agree, it’s not so much safety - its convenience- cleanliness. You can barely move amongst the crowds and those pandemic kiosks have trapped festering garbage everywhere. I’m in New Jersey and we’ve been coming in on Tuesday and Wednesday nights to avoid the crazies - and we stay clear of Times Square opting for side streets. We only use discounted tickets and have been letting the high priced shows pass us by. This season has 36 shows opening vs 30 in 2018/19 And a hell of a lot more musicals are opening this year. With attendance down and the number of shows up I’ve got to believe it’s going to mean more discounts for those in the know but it’s also going to mean  a lot of quick closings after the Tony nominations. 

[Phantom4ever]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 11:07pm

My sister-in-law was over the other day and she noticed one of my Times Square magnets which is just a random picture of Times Square at night and she sighed and said "it's so sad it doesn't look like that anymore." And I said "huh?" And she said "the crime and the migrants ruined Times Square. You can't walk through there without getting robbed or stabbed these days." I told her I've made five trips to New York in the past year and Times Sq is just fine, but she disagreed. And her point of view is generally what I hear about New York these days, especially from older white people, who just happen to make up a huge slice of the Broadway audience. 

For years, New York's image was Sex and the City and Gossip Girl wealth, safety, and opulence. I think the city did a disservice to Broadway by dismissing worries about crime and and the migrant crisis. The tourism industry isn't going to collapse of course, but with fewer 60 year olds from NJ and CT willing to ignore what they see in the Post and on Fox News, this trend will continue. 

As for me, someone who routinely sees 15-20 shows a year to support my Phantom addiction, I've only been back once since the closure. But that is because there is just a lack of shows good enough to warrant the trip without Phantom. 

Updated On: 1/3/24 at 11:07 PM

[EDSOSLO858]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 11:11pm

Even if travel and ticket prices were to eventually lower somewhat, entertainment habits have clearly and permanently changed for some, and so cost wouldn’t really make much of a difference. 

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 11:26pm

EDSOSLO858 said: "Even if travel and ticket prices were to eventually lower somewhat, entertainment habits have clearly and permanently changed for some, and so cost wouldn’t really make much of a difference."

Yes and there will always be some shows that can't even give em away in large enough volumes. We've talked about this in the past, but you could put "all tickets $12" on the FOH for <insert any number of titles> and they still wouldn't fill up every night.

[Melissa25]

Posted: 1/3/24 at 11:38pm

There used to be literally pages of discounts available. Not anymore. Right now Broadway Box was my go-to source has discounts for 7 Broadway shows, only 2 of which are for the new season. Theatermania has 7 with 3 being for the new season. Not sure what happened to Playbill. They only have 1 for & Juliet.  So I won’t be shocked if I see a continuation with a lot less preview discount flyers in my mailbox.  

Also, with ATG merging with Jujamcyn, I expect more and more of this “exclusive” pricing to run rampant and others will start to follow suit.  So if 70% of the orchestra is premium now, expect half of that to turn into experiential priced seats where you can go pee in a separate bathroom and drink a shot of wine from a sippy cup for an extra $200 seat.  It almost feels Vegas or bust-like.  

Updated On: 1/3/24 at 11:38 PM

[Theatrefan2]

Posted: 1/4/24 at 12:09am

I visited NY in October for the first time since 2015 (used to visit almost yearly) and while i wouldn't say it felt dangerous or massively unsafe,  I definitely felt more cautious and little less safe than I did 8 years ago. It was definitely dirtier than before, noticeably more homeless, and the smell of weed was everywhere (not opposed to legalisation but just hate the smell). We were also advised a few times not to use the subway (especially after dark) which was a first.

The pedicabs I don't remember from last time and were super annoying, and so loud. 

The main thing though was just how ridiculously expensive it is. It was never cheap but everything had shot up. Don't get me wrong, the US in general has got very expensive to visit since Covid, but NY even more so.

Had a great time still, but the city has lost something since my last visit and i probably wouldn't rush back.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 1/4/24 at 1:34am

I unfortunately got sick this fall and it was easier to take the loss on cheap concert tickets than expensive theater tickets. The shows that interested me (Merrily, Here We Are) were too expensive to buy in advance and while word of mouth occasionally swayed me towards Some Like It Hot or Shucked, I knew I didn't like the songs and I'd probably have an average experience just going to try and catch the Tony-winning performances... so I didn't. 

There's a lot coming up this season that does pique my interest (Lempicka, Suffs, The Notebook, Hell's Kitchen, Water For Elephants, etc.) but I might be persuaded against seeing most of those shows and just check out one or two. This is more personal but I don't have the energy to try and see everything to appreciate the aspects or performances that do work; I'd rather see fewer shows that are mostly solid. 

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 1/4/24 at 2:59am

I always used to buy my tickets well in advance and had no problem getting reasonably priced (or discounted) tickets. This thing they're doing now where all the tickets are terribly expensive until the show opens and gets terrible reviews (and then MAYBE dropping the price)... beside making it impossible to plan a trip ahead of time... how on earth do they expect to build word of mouth? 

I do also think we shouldn't be confused by overstating how many people are concerned about "danger" and the actual (lack) of danger that exists. To my dismay, I frequently hear genuine concern about the danger of NYC (and "downtown" Chicago where I live) and folks who simply won't travel around theater areas at night. I show them the statistics and assure them their thinking is misguided... but I think this false perception has grown to be somewhat significant problem. 

[Melissa25]

Posted: 1/4/24 at 7:32am

Theaterfan2: The pedicabs I don't remember from last time and were super annoying, and so loud. 

This. 1000%. 
Also, pedicabs create a dangerous situation by blocking egress after a show. I really wish the Broadway League would demand that the Adams administration work on this issue. 

[Lot666]

Posted: 1/4/24 at 8:48am

Phantom4ever said: "As for me, someone who routinely sees 15-20 shows a year to support my Phantom addiction, I've only been back once since the closure. But that is because there is just a lack of shows good enough to warrant the trip without Phantom."

I used to visit NY 2-4 times per year and see anywhere from 5-7 shows per visit, with one of them always being Phantom. Unfortunately, the ticket prices have become completely absurd and absolutely nothing that opened in 2023 held the slightest interest for me. Consequently, I haven't been back to the city since Phantom closed last April and currently have no plans to return. The only potential I see in 2024 is the rumored transfer of Sunset Boulevard from the West End.

Updated On: 1/4/24 at 08:48 AM