How did Phantom lose Best Score?? — Page 3

Lot666 said: "kdogg36 said: "You can read about Sondheim's use of various musical themes in the relevant chapter in Sondheim on Music."

Fair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Given the fact that Sondheim is on the record regarding how he constructed the score to ITW very deliberately, and ALW is on the record stating how he constructed the score of Phantom by using a discarded song from one of his other shows (Music of the Night aka Married Man) and a single he wrote for Placido Domingo (All I Ask Of You aka I Don't Talk to Strangers) as central musical themes, it's clear that only one composer truly cares that a score is developed as a cohesive unit and not just a collection of songs that can be pulled from a trunk.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 01:11 PM

SeanD2 said: "Lot666 said: "kdogg36 said: "You can read about Sondheim's use of various musical themes in the relevant chapter in Sondheim on Music."

Fair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Given the fact that Sondheim is on the record regarding how he constructed the score to ITW very deliberately, and ALW is on the record stating how he constructed the score of Phantom by using a discarded song from one of his other shows (Music of the Night aka Married Man) and a single he wrote for Placido Domingo (All I Ask Of You aka I Don't Talk to Strangers) as central musical themes, it's clear that only one composer truly cares that a score is developed as a cohesive unit and not just a collection of songs that can be pulled from a trunk."

Meh. Bernstein swapped songs back and forth for West Side Story and Candide, two shows as dissimilar as possible. And plenty of opera composers have created scores of imperishable beauty that are "a collection of songs that can be pulled from a trunk" (Offenbach's Le Contes d'Hoffman, for one).

joevitus said: "kdogg36 said: "Lot666 said: "kair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Although I don't lovePhantom, I'm actually quite pro-ALW, and I have no doubt that a great deal of thought goes into creating his best scores. Years ago, in fact, I had a website that analyzed the score ofAspects of Lovein rather excruciating detail!"

Loooove Aspects of Love! I'm apparently one of the few people in the U.S. who do."

I have a Weird relationship with Aspects of Love. The first 2.30 minutes are Webber's worst work bar none, while the last half hour is by far his best. And good God I would pay to watch that last half hour. I've legit bought a ticket to that show before just to second act it.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 03:04 PM

I had the impression at the time that the score of Phantom was considered weak but the production was considered spectacular, so I wasn't surprised that the Into the Woods score won. I'm not a fan of ALW, but I think his score for Phantom was one of his worst. Still, if ITW hadn't been around that year it would probably have won. I am a fan of Sondheim and although I don't consider ITW to be one of his best, it's better than Phantom.

perfectlymarvelous said: "Some of you have never heard of intentional musical motifs and themes and it really shows!

But seriously, there's a stark difference between the repetition of musical and lyrical phrases in Into the Woods (all intentional and done with the intent of furthering story and/or character) and ALW's inability to write more than 3-5 songs per show. You can dislike Sondheim, but dismissing his work as boring or painting him as not having any skill as a writer is absurd."

You may be right, but to me it is one big bore, with rare exception. I saw ITW a week after it originally opened, and, after those reviews, I am not sure I have ever been disappointed by a show and score as much as that one. As a rule, I love Sondheim scores, but ITW is an exception, as are Assassins and Passion. Of the three, however, I think I dislike the ITW score the most (but admit to hating the show more than the music

To those of you who conclude that I am an idiot or need to go back to nursery school, I think the scores of Sweeney Tood, Follies, Company, A Little Night Music, Sunday in the Park and Merrily are as good as Broadway gets — at least three are genuine masterpieces — and I think Anyone Can whistle is not that far behind them. I like the score to Pacific Overtires a lot, but have never liked the show. So, I do consider myself a Sondheim fan, if not a blind one.

Once you learn anything about music, you realize that Phantom (and all of ALW's music in general) looks like it was written by a child. My jaw drops when I hear an actual chord in his music, and not a melody and a bass line.

yyys said: "Sondheim is a genius, ALW isn't. Simple as that."

Jarethan said: "As a rule, I love Sondheim scores, but ITW is an exception, as are Assassins and Passion. Of the three, however, I think I dislikethe ITW score the most (but admit to hating the showmore than the music"

I like ITW more than you do, but agree it is lesser Sondheim (and a real drop after Sunday in the Park with George). I can't stand Assassins or Passion, myself.

Sondheim is a genius, ALW isn't. Simple as that.

ALW is most definitely a genius. Simple as that.

Loooove Aspects of Love! I'm apparently one of the few people in the U.S. who do.

It's actually my favorite Lloyd Webber show.

"Music of the night" is a blend of "Come to Me, Bend to Me" from Brigadoon bridged with "Quello che tacete" from Fanciulla del West.

The Fanciulla del West 5-chord progression, sure, but that's it. You simply cannot make a case that the first four notes of Music of the Night were ripped off from Brigadoon. Did Frederick Loewe "steal" those four notes from School Days by Will Cobb? And how did you go from the first four notes to the last five chords as being the entire song? I mean, if that's all it takes, can you imagine the thousands (perhaps millions) of composers who "stole" I-IV-V-I as the final chord progression of a song from each other? There wouldn't have been an original composer on the planet for centuries. The whole Brigadoon comparison really needs to be put to bed because it's absurd.

That's Jesus Christ Superstar.

GavestonPS said: "Lot666 said: "perfectlymarvelous said: "the repetition of musical and lyrical phrases in Into the Woods (all intentional and done with the intent of furthering story and/or character)"

Did you have a private audience with Mr. Sondheim, during which he shared this developmental information with you, or should you have prefaced this statement with those all-important-but-usually-omitted three words, "In my opinion..."?

"

Sondheim deconstructs Into The Woods

If you have the best part of an hour to spare it’s fascinating to hear Sondheim deconstruct his own works

Updated On: 7/31/19 at 07:21 PM

Back to original question why ALW didn't win for Best Score- Politics

Quote

Brightman starred as Christine Daae in Lloyd Webber's adaptation of The Phantom of the Opera. The role of Christine was written specifically for her. Lloyd Webber refused to open The Phantom of the Opera on Broadway unless Brightman played Christine].Initially, the American Actors Equity Association balked, because of their policy that any non-American performer must be an international star. Lloyd Webber had to cast an American in a leading role in his next West End Musical before Equity would allow Brightman to appear (a promise he kept in casting Aspects of Love)

Equity ( and other unions) didn't like the ALW came from Over The Pond and dictated to them how their policies were to be enforced and he had a big enough stick to get them to capitulate. ( His ball, his bat, his glove= his game + HIS rules)

Best Musical goes to the Producers ( and yes ALW W Cameron MacIntosh And Really Useful were the producers) BUT Best Score goes to the Composer and that was only ALW. Payback.

That was always my take on it. Cheap and petty behavior but we are talking about the entertainment industry