How did Phantom lose Best Score??- Page 3

[SeanD2]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:11pm

Lot666 said: "kdogg36 said: "You can read about Sondheim's use of various musical themes in the relevant chapter in Sondheim on Music."

Fair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Given the fact that Sondheim is on the record regarding how he constructed the score to ITW very deliberately, and ALW is on the record stating how he constructed the score of Phantom by using a discarded song from one of his other shows (Music of the Night aka Married Man) and a single he wrote for Placido Domingo (All I Ask Of You aka I Don't Talk to Strangers) as central musical themes, it's clear that only one composer truly cares that a score is developed as a cohesive unit and not just a collection of songs that can be pulled from a trunk.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 01:11 PM

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:12pm

kdogg36 said: "Lot666 said: "kair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Although I don't lovePhantom, I'm actually quite pro-ALW, and I have no doubt that a great deal of thought goes into creating his best scores. Years ago, in fact, I had a website that analyzed the score ofAspects of Lovein rather excruciating detail!"

Loooove Aspects of Love! I'm apparently one of the few people in the U.S. who do. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 1:16pm

SeanD2 said: "Lot666 said: "kdogg36 said: "You can read about Sondheim's use of various musical themes in the relevant chapter in Sondheim on Music."

Fair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Given the fact that Sondheim is on the record regarding how he constructed the score to ITW very deliberately, and ALW is on the record stating how he constructed the score of Phantom by using a discarded song from one of his other shows (Music of the Night aka Married Man) and a single he wrote for Placido Domingo (All I Ask Of You aka I Don't Talk to Strangers) as central musical themes, it's clear that only one composer truly cares that a score is developed as a cohesive unit and not just a collection of songs that can be pulled from a trunk."

Meh. Bernstein swapped songs back and forth for West Side Story and Candide, two shows as dissimilar as possible. And plenty of opera composers have created scores of imperishable beauty that are "a collection of songs that can be pulled from a trunk" (Offenbach's Le Contes d'Hoffman, for one). 

[helvizz]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 2:47pm

kdogg36 said: "helvizz said: "There's one I actually hate: in the second act, when Raoul is trying to convince Christine to go with his plan, and they play the same notes of Prima Donna. Makes no sense in my opinion."

Well, this may be a bit superficial, but in both cases the object is to persuade someone to do something they're reluctant to do: the managers want to overcome Carlotta's indignation and get her to appear on stage again, and Raoul, as you said, wants Christine to fight throughher fears and defeat the Phantom."

I completely agree, but the relationship dynamics are so different (Raoul x Christine and the managers x Carlotta), that's why I don't think it works at all. The managers are persuading a diva to work through flattery because they want more money, Raoul (supposedly) loves Christine and wants to catch the Phantom. Two very different reasons. However, on a superficial level - like you said-, they can be read as similar situations.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 02:47 PM

[TooTiredForThis]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 3:04pm

joevitus said: "kdogg36 said: "Lot666 said: "kair enough, but what do you think ALW would say about his use of musical themes in Phantom, if asked?"

Although I don't lovePhantom, I'm actually quite pro-ALW, and I have no doubt that a great deal of thought goes into creating his best scores. Years ago, in fact, I had a website that analyzed the score ofAspects of Lovein rather excruciating detail!"

Loooove Aspects of Love! I'm apparently one of the few people in the U.S. who do."

I have a Weird relationship with Aspects of Love. The first 2.30 minutes are Webber's worst work bar none, while the last half hour is by far his best. And good God I would pay to watch that last half hour. I've legit bought a ticket to that show before just to second act it.

Updated On: 7/30/19 at 03:04 PM

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 3:08pm

joevitus said: "GavestonPS said:
But "No One Is Alone" and "Candy Man"? Huh? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't hear it.


The connection is incredibly slight, but the opening lines "Mother cannot guide you" are almost identical to the line "Who can make the sun rise?" but played at a slower pace. The basic melody sounds nothing like Candyman.

For the record, I don't think Lloyd Webber stole from Puccini, either.

That aside, ITW, though of lesser Sondheim vintage, is INFINITELY superior to Phantom. I say this as someone who not only doesn't hate Lloyd Webber but thinks Aspects of Love is criminally underrated.

"

Ah, yes. I can hear it now. Thanks, Joe. The harmony and complexity of Cinderella's entire song are so different I didn't catch the melodic similarity at first. Somehow I doubt Sondheim dwells much on Leslie Bricusse scores (no matter how much I truly love GREASEPAINT).

But I think ALW did borrow from Puccini. He has in every other score, why would he stop with PHANTOM? It may well be the borrowing is unconscious; I've never read anything that proves otherwise (though some of the above examples of his interpolation may suggest he knows exactly what he is doing).

[AADA81]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 4:05pm

I had the impression at the time that the score of Phantom was considered weak but the production was considered spectacular, so I wasn't surprised that the Into the Woods score won.  I'm not a fan of ALW, but I think his score for Phantom was one of his worst.  Still, if ITW hadn't been around that year it would probably have won.  I am a fan of Sondheim and although I don't consider ITW to be one of his best, it's better than Phantom.

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 5:18pm

GavestonPS said: "joevitus said: "GavestonPS said:
But "No One Is Alone" and "Candy Man"? Huh? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't hear it.


The connection is incredibly slight, but the opening lines "Mother cannot guide you" are almost identical to the line "Who can make the sun rise?" but played at a slower pace. The basic melody sounds nothing like Candyman.

For the record, I don't think Lloyd Webber stole from Puccini, either.

That aside, ITW, though of lesser Sondheim vintage, is INFINITELY superior to Phantom. I say this as someone who not only doesn't hate Lloyd Webber but thinks Aspects of Love is criminally underrated.

"

Ah, yes. I can hear it now. Thanks, Joe. The harmony and complexity of Cinderella's entire song are so different I didn't catch the melodic similarity at first. Somehow I doubt Sondheim dwells much on Leslie Bricusse scores (no matter how much I truly love GREASEPAINT)."

LOL

[Jarethan]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 7:26pm

perfectlymarvelous said: "Some of you have never heard of intentional musical motifs and themes and it really shows!

But seriously, there's a stark difference between the repetition of musical and lyrical phrases in Into the Woods (all intentional and done with the intent of furthering story and/or character) and ALW's inability to write more than 3-5 songs per show. You can dislike Sondheim, but dismissing his work as boring or painting him as not having any skill as a writer is absurd."

You may be right, but to me it is one big bore, with rare exception.  I saw ITW a week after it originally opened, and, after those reviews, I am not sure I have ever been disappointed by a show and score as much as that one.  As a rule, I love Sondheim scores, but ITW is an exception, as are Assassins and Passion.  Of the three, however, I think I dislike the ITW score the most (but admit to hating the show more than the music

To those of you who conclude that I am an idiot or need to go back to nursery school, I think the scores of Sweeney Tood, Follies, Company, A Little Night Music, Sunday in the Park and Merrily are as good as Broadway gets — at least three are genuine masterpieces — and I think Anyone Can whistle is not that far behind them.  I like the score to Pacific Overtires a lot, but have never liked the show.  So, I do consider myself a Sondheim fan, if not a blind one.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 9:23pm

Lot666 said: "perfectlymarvelous said: "the repetition of musical and lyrical phrases in Into the Woods (all intentional and done with the intent of furthering story and/or character)"

Did you have a private audience with Mr. Sondheim, during which he shared this developmental information with you, or should you have prefaced this statement with those all-important-but-usually-omitted three words, "In my opinion..."?

"

It's not just Lot666's opinion. It's something Sondheim himself has discussed at length (with regard to ITW and all his scores), and something that has been charted in detail by his critical biographers.
 

[Alex Kulak2]

Posted: 7/30/19 at 11:46pm

Once you learn anything about music, you realize that Phantom (and all of ALW's music in general) looks like it was written by a child. My jaw drops when I hear an actual chord in his music, and not a melody and a bass line.

[yyys]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 9:11am

Sondheim is a genius, ALW isn't.  Simple as that.

[Lot666]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 11:05am

yyys said: "Sondheim is a genius, ALW isn't. Simple as that."

[Kad]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 12:07pm

ALW  is laughing all the way to the bank that he probably now owns. Who cares what award he lost in the late 80s? Phantom will outlast us all. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 1:02pm

Jarethan said: "As a rule, I love Sondheim scores, but ITW is an exception, as are Assassins and Passion. Of the three, however, I think I dislikethe ITW score the most (but admit to hating the showmore than the music"

I like ITW more than you do, but agree it is lesser Sondheim (and a real drop after Sunday in the Park with George). I can't stand Assassins or Passion, myself. 

[joevitus]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 1:05pm

To me a problem in these discussions is what comes across as a kind of tribalism to me. People HATE Lloyd Webber or they HATE Sondheim or the LOVE Lloyd Webber or they LOVE Sondheim. But both men, like all artists, have their creative ups and downs, their masterpieces and their mistakes. I enjoy both of them, but I evaluate any given work on its own merits.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 3:03pm

Sondheim is a genius, ALW isn't.  Simple as that.

ALW is most definitely a genius.  Simple as that.

Loooove Aspects of Love! I'm apparently one of the few people in the U.S. who do.

It's actually my favorite Lloyd Webber show.

"Music of the night" is a blend of "Come to Me, Bend to Me" from Brigadoon bridged with "Quello che tacete" from Fanciulla del West.

The Fanciulla del West 5-chord progression, sure, but that's it.  You simply cannot make a case that the first four notes of Music of the Night were ripped off from Brigadoon.  Did Frederick Loewe "steal" those four notes from School Days by Will Cobb?  And how did you go from the first four notes to the last five chords as being the entire song?  I mean, if that's all it takes, can you imagine the thousands (perhaps millions) of composers who "stole" I-IV-V-I as the final chord progression of a song from each other?  There wouldn't have been an original composer on the planet for centuries.  The whole Brigadoon comparison really needs to be put to bed because it's absurd.

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 3:16pm

Lot666 said: "yyys said: "Sondheim is a genius, ALW isn't. Simple as that."

"

This GIF is killing me. 

[a12la]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 5:55pm

Broadway Flash said: "This is ALWs best score"

That's Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 6:45pm

a12la said: "Broadway Flash said: "This is ALWs best score"

That's Jesus Christ Superstar."

I actually think Evita is his best score, but that’s just my opinion obviously  

 

[CATSNYrevival]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 6:51pm

I’d like to throw Passion some love since it seems to be taking a bashing in this thread. I find it beautiful and I think it’s one of Sondheim’s best scores.

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 7:12pm

Into the Woods is overrated, but speaking as someone who loves Phantom, I'll say I can see why it didn't win Best Score, given that it IS basically the same six tunes repeated over and over again.

[ukpuppetboy]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 7:21pm

GavestonPS said: "Lot666 said: "perfectlymarvelous said: "the repetition of musical and lyrical phrases in Into the Woods (all intentional and done with the intent of furthering story and/or character)"

Did you have a private audience with Mr. Sondheim, during which he shared this developmental information with you, or should you have prefaced this statement with those all-important-but-usually-omitted three words, "In my opinion..."?

"

Sondheim deconstructs Into The Woods

If you have  the best part of an hour to spare it’s fascinating to hear Sondheim deconstruct his own works 

 

Updated On: 7/31/19 at 07:21 PM

[Broadway Flash]

Posted: 7/31/19 at 9:22pm

Kad said: "ALW is laughing all the way to the bank that he probably now owns. Who cares what award helost in the late 80s? Phantom will outlast us all."

Did Hal prince own some of it?

[sabrelady]

Posted: 8/1/19 at 12:17am

Back to original question why ALW didn't win for Best Score- Politics

Quote

Brightman starred as Christine Daae in Lloyd Webber's adaptation of The Phantom of the Opera. The role of Christine was written specifically for her. Lloyd Webber refused to open The Phantom of the Opera on Broadway unless Brightman played Christine].Initially, the American Actors Equity Association balked, because of their policy that any non-American performer must be an international star. Lloyd Webber had to cast an American in a leading role in his next West End Musical before Equity would allow Brightman to appear (a promise he kept in casting Aspects of Love)

Equity ( and other unions) didn't like the ALW came from Over The Pond  and dictated to them how their policies were to be enforced and he had a big enough stick to get them to capitulate. ( His ball, his bat, his glove= his game + HIS rules)  

Best Musical goes to the Producers ( and yes ALW W Cameron MacIntosh And Really Useful were the producers) BUT  Best Score goes to the  Composer and that was only ALW. Payback.

That was always my take on it. Cheap and petty behavior but we are talking about the entertainment industry