Michael Jackson musical...new documentary- Page 3

[haterobics]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 6:48pm

Dave28282 said: "dragging someone through the mud that has been dead for 10 years really isn't the solution."

Personally, I hope all of my accusers (should they exist) wait until I'm dead to pipe up.

[Impossible2]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 7:50pm

Dave28282 said: "Kad said: "One of these menis already an extremely well-regarded and successful choreographer for pop stars. The mothers of both men have said they let Jackson's fame and fortune blind them thirty years ago."

And yet, I have never heard of him, and I do now.

About the parents, that's what I meant. Being very blinded by fortune and fame doesn't just disappear like that."

Why don’t you just go watch the film which you obviously haven’t watched and yet you seem to know everything about, every answer you appear to be searching for is contained within it.

No one is painted as innocent and everyone involved takes their share of the blame for their actions.

Updated On: 3/5/19 at 07:50 PM

[SweetLips22]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 8:25pm

There is just no reason for this MJ musical to continue.

There must be enough royalties from other sources to keep the estate coffers overflowing.

This enterprise is bad publicity, but is it now too late to quietly withdraw?

[Kad]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 8:39pm

Dave28282 said: "Knowing someone and success are 2 different things.But it also could just be money.

If it really was about being noble, getting over personal trauma and findinginner peace, dragging someone through the mud that has been dead for 10 years really isn't the solution. I would assume you would handle that a bit more privately. Come to terms with yourself and your parents. Away from public negativity.Maybe having a talk with your parents about why they were so blinded by the fame and fortune and the men could have explained to them why they are against that standpoint and why it's all about inner peace and maybe explain to themwhythe fame and public opinion does not matter at all. If that's their opinion of course.But that's between them"

And what if the person who allegedly did this is nigh-worshipped as an unimpeachable genius? Someone who controlled his narrative so tightly, both in life and after death through his estate? Someone with the money and clout to quash accusations? That was the state of the world until recently- men like Jackson, Weinstein, Cosby, all able to leverage their considerable power to threaten and stymie. You put far too much faith in the idea of the justice system being effective here. 

The relationship between these men and their mothers is discussed in the documentary.

The time in which matters such as these are settled privately is over. Sorry if that inconveniences you.

Updated On: 3/5/19 at 08:39 PM

[Footlight Parade]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 9:13pm

The documentary is being screened on Australian Television this Friday/Saturday. There have already been two one hour shows including the local Sixty Minutes ....which exposed a lot of things that l can’t talk about here. I think it will definitely have some negative effect in regard to his respect and possibly box office sales. 

The local shows interviewed other individuals who claim abuse. They also interviewed Jermaine Jackson.. who when questioned about the allegations replied three times “he was acquitted” got up and walked out. Janet Jackson was also interviewed and mention was made of the allegations. Her reply was “ he brought so much joy to people... why would you bring that up?” “I won’t talk about that”

 

Updated On: 3/5/19 at 09:13 PM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 10:44pm

The cult of personality is strong.

I think it's pretty clear that those who accuse Wade Robson and James Safechuck of doing this documentary for fame and fortune have not bothered to watch it. Of all of the complaints leveled at the film, this is the most ridiculous. Especially coming from the Jackson family.

This show is never going to happen.

[theatreguy12]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:03pm

I'd be surprised to see this musical go forward at this point with all the controversy that has been stirred up.

As for the accusations themselves though, I wonder how many people will be moved enough by this documentary to change their tune on MJ.   Anyone on here who thought he was innocent until seeing this documentary?  Just curious. 

As heinous as it seems by what these guys are saying, it's still a he said/he said situation.  With one of those "he"s no longer here to further defend himself.  No matter how graphic the details are.

It seems like this whole story has been exceedingly polarizing, with 1/2 the people believing the accusations, and the other half being quite skeptical.

For the record, I have not seen the documentary yet, but I know people who have. They have shared much of what is in it with me. I've also heard these two guys speak in other venues.  

To be honest, those who have seen it and thought MJ was capable of this behavior are "convinced" now.  Conversely, those who didn't think as such, are still skeptical.  They keep going back to how adamantly these guys came in on behalf of MJ during the trial.  The defense attorney had these guys at the crux of his defense because they were so believable in saying that nothing happened.  And this was at a point when they were adults, and no longer kids.  

Now would a kid caught up in the midst of this abuse be afraid to say anything if told not to?  Of course, most would.   But these guys were well into adulthood when they went into that courtroom and passionately defended MJ. 

In fact, I myself have seen clips from back then when one of these guys is strutting out of the courthouse with a big smile on his face and a peace sign.   He's a pretty darned good actor to be abused as long as he said he was and still be able to be so convincing, and seemingly un-traumatized.  His affect and body language would have many believing what he told the court.

Now again, does that mean it didn't happen?  No.  But it's just an additional piece that makes people skeptical.   

That being said, one does have to wonder.  Because why would these guys come out, risking the livelihood of their own children who you know will be ridiculed by other children who are either fans of MJ, or have parents who are.  And even more so, their parents have been thrown into a very troublesome light.  I don't care how much they try to explain why they allowed their kids to take part in this relationship with MJ.  And how "blinded" they were by MJ's mesmerizing ways.   They are the adults in this situation, and any adult who would allow such a thing is a seriously questionable parent.  

If this did happen, MJ was clearly the perpetrator, but it's the parents who have to live with themselves for the choices they made.  I'd have a hard time looking my son in the eye knowing what happened.  Based on what one poster on here said though, it appears the parents are taking part of the responsibility.  And they should.  No excuses.   

This is why if there is any part of me that believes these guys, that would be it.  Because they have not only risked the reputation of their parents, but they have also put their kids in some potentially difficult situations as well.

How many other victims have there been, I wonder.  I've only heard of the original accuser whose parents had a reputation for going after people for money.  Which is why the jury ruled in favor of MJ.   And one of the reasons they ruled in MJ's favor was because of how adamant these two men, who are now in this documentary, were in saying MJ never did anything to them.

Other than these guys I haven't heard much from anyone else.  And abusers of children such as this don't usually take vacations.  There is usually a long line of victims left in their sordid path.   How many have turned up in between, or since these stories?

Updated On: 3/5/19 at 11:03 PM

[RippedMan]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:12pm

How would this doc garner either of these two gentlemen fame or fortune? Or at least the kind of fame someone would want.

[Impossible2]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:34pm

theatreguy12 said: "I'd be surprised to see this musical go forward at this point with all the controversy that has been stirred up.

As for the accusations themselves though, I wonder how many people will be moved enough by this documentary to change their tune on MJ. Anyone on here who thought he was innocent until seeing this documentary? Just curious.

As heinous as it seems by what these guys are saying, it's still a he said/he said situation. With one of those "he"s no longer here to further defend himself. No matter how graphic the details are.

It seems like this whole story has been exceedingly polarizing, with 1/2 the people believing the accusations, and the other half being quite skeptical.

For the record, I have not seen the documentary yet, but I know people who have. They have shared much of what is in it with me.I've also heard these two guys speak in other venues.

To be honest, those who have seen it and thought MJ was capable of this behavior are "convinced" now. Conversely, those who didn't think as such, are still skeptical. They keep going back to how adamantly these guys came in on behalf of MJ during the trial. The defense attorney had these guys at the crux of his defense because they were so believable in saying that nothing happened. And this was at a point when they were adults, and no longer kids.

Now would a kid caught up in the midst of this abusebe afraid to say anything if told not to? Of course, most would. But these guys were well into adulthoodwhen they went into that courtroom and passionatelydefended MJ.

In fact, I myself have seen clips from back then when one of these guys is strutting out of the courthouse with a big smile on his face and a peace sign. He's a pretty darned good actor to be abused as long as he said he was and still be able to be so convincing, and seemingly un-traumatized. His affect and body language would have many believing what he told the court.

Now again, does that mean it didn't happen? No. But it's just an additional piece that makes people skeptical.

That being said, one does have to wonder. Because why would these guys come out, risking the livelihood of their own children who you know will be ridiculed by other children who are either fans of MJ, or have parents who are. And even more so, their parents have been thrown into a very troublesome light. I don't care how much they try to explain why they allowed their kids to take part in this relationship with MJ. And how "blinded" they were by MJ's mesmerizing ways. They are the adults in this situation, and any adult who would allow such a thing is a seriously questionable parent.

If this did happen, MJ was clearly the perpetrator, but it's the parents who have to live with themselves for the choices they made. I'd have a hard time looking my son in the eye knowing what happened. Based on what one poster on here said though, it appears the parents are taking part of theresponsibility. And they should. No excuses.

This is why if there is any part of me that believes these guys, that would be it. Because they have not only risked the reputation of their parents, butthey have also put their kids in some potentially difficult situations as well.

How many other victims have there been, I wonder. I've only heard of the original accuser whose parents had a reputation for going after people for money. Which is why the jury ruled in favor of MJ. And one of the reasons they ruled in MJ's favor was because of how adamant these two men,who are now in this documentary, were in saying MJ never did anything to them.

Other than these guys I haven't heard much from anyone else. And abusers of children such as this don't usually take vacations. There is usually a long line of victims left in their sordid path. How many have turned up in between, or since these stories?"

In the time it took you to write all that you could’ve watched the whole 4 hour film and made up your own mind

[QueenAlice]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:36pm

With all due respect, if you haven’t watched the documentary, don’t post here. Go watch it and then respond so you know what you’re talking about.

And Wade Robson has made millions over the years as a choreographer for television and arena tours. He’s also won numerous Emmy awards and other honors. It’s higjly doubtful he is bringing up the allegations against Jackson now to generate fame and fortune.

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:42pm

For those who watch the documentary, I also recommend watching Oprah’s interview with the documentary maker and the two men. She understands the psychology of abuse very well and she caught thinks I had missed. And for those who still wonder after 4 hours why they didn’t speak out as soon as they became adults, I think the Oprah special elucidates why.

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:44pm

And these are not the first two victims to speak out. There were two other victims that spoke out, one at each trial. And there is most assuredly more. Most survivors of sexual abuse do not speak out because they fear they will not be believed and because they have a great shame and fear that people will judge them so the stigma keeps them in the closet. It also takes a while for an adult to find a language and to comprehend what happened to them as a child.

[Miles2Go2]

Posted: 3/5/19 at 11:50pm

I’d also point out that Wade spoke out 6 years ago. People are just more aware of it now because of the documentary. He’s getting death threats so I don’t think he’s doing this for fame and fortune.

[haterobics]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 1:49am

theatreguy12 said: "As heinous as it seems by what these guys are saying, it's still a he said/he said situation. With one of those "he"s no longer here to further defend himself. No matter how graphic the details are."

Yes, but if a criminal case against Jackson was believed to be lost because of Robson's pro-Jackson testimony, him now saying that was all a lie is more substantial than just a new random allegation.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 5:31am

Kad, I see your point, but the other examples you mention are still alive. This man has been dead for 10 years. There is nothing left to do for these men than accept the choices their parents made at the time, the mistakes that were made, the fact they were blinded by fame and money, the things Michael did or did not do. The most important thing is the conversation between them and their parents now. 

These are very personal things. Making a movie seems like a peculiar choice. Especially when they have taken money before, admitted that they were blinded by fame and fortune before, and that the man has been dead for 10 years now. There is no use in making this into a business. Well, there could be, but that depends on their intentions.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 5:53am

theatreguy12 said: "They keep going back to how adamantly these guys came in on behalf of MJ during the trial. The defense attorney had these guys at the crux of his defense because they were so believable in saying that nothing happened. And this was at a point when they were adults, and no longer kids."

I think that's either because nothing happened or they were pushed by their parents who received a large sum of money.

theatreguy12 said: "In fact, I myself have seen clips from back then when one of these guys is strutting out of the courthouse with a big smile on his face and a peace sign. He's a pretty darned good actor to be abused as long as he said he was and still be able to be so convincing, and seemingly un-traumatized. His affect and body language would have many believing what he told the court.

Now again, does that mean it didn't happen? No. But it's just an additional piece that makes people skeptical."

I have seen that too. It was a smile of winning. So either their plan worked or justice was served.

theatreguy12 said: "these guys come out, risking the livelihood of their own children who you know will be ridiculed by other children who are either fans of MJ, or have parents who are. And even more so, their parents have been thrown into a very troublesome light. I don't care how much they try to explain why they allowed their kids to take part in this relationship with MJ. And how "blinded" they were by MJ's mesmerizing ways. They are the adults in this situation, and any adult who would allow such a thing is a seriously questionable parent."

These are things they might not have thought about well enough. Because Michael has been dead for 10 years, nothing to gain from that (except a business, money and notoriety). The parents could face charges if this case is re-opened. I mean, look at the Jussie Smollett case. It seemed like a good plan to him, but he never expected the negativity and the side effects.

But, because the case has aged, it will stay a he said/he said situation, with only losers, and a little business for some.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 6:06am

Like Jonathan Harris said:

Dear people & the media,

We've learned our lesson with Jussie Smollett. NEVER again will we report accusations as fact without proof. Even if they're graphic & fit a popular narrative.

Updated On: 3/6/19 at 06:06 AM

[BobbyBubbi]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 6:34am

Watched the documentary. I don't think I'll able to separate the man from the music ever again. This is coming from someone who saw Michael Jackson’s ONE by Cirque du Soleil twice (it really is the best show in Vegas right now). The only way I would ever see Janet (admittedly, I’m a much bigger fan of hers than of her brother) in Vegas is if she made some kind of statement.

I applaud HBO for airing it, along with the Oprah interview, even in the face of a lawsuit (watch it before it gets pulled folks!). As a child of the 90s, I grew up listening to his music, I remember seeing Captain EO at Epcot (Anjelica Huston scared the SH!T outta me), and I remember the early allegations on TV. As ColorTheHours048 pointed out, when the details about Michael Jackson’s personal life started to emerge, it creeped me out. Even then as a kid, I remember thinking “this is someone with a lot of money and power, who got away with doing very bad things.”

It’s interesting to look at the paradox that developed in the media after the trial. Shows like SNL, MADtv, and South Park (brace yourself, some of these are pretty disgusting to watch after viewing Leaving Neverland) were “poking fun” at the sexual predatory violence towards children, and somehow Jackson’s “open secret” had become something socially acceptable enough to laugh at. What does this say about us as a society?

I hope the maniacal die-hard Michael Jackson fans can watch Leaving Neverland, and get a wake up call. It’s a well made documentary that examines all aspects of a very complicated issue. I’m still struggling to understand Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck’s parents and how they could be so blind to Jackson’s behavior, but as they explained in the Oprah interview, it was apart of a “grooming” process. I’m glad this documentary is bringing more awareness to the issue, particularly for men and boys and how we talk about predators, victims and healing.

Further viewing (for those interested): Sexual Assault of Men Played for Laughs

[TheQuibbler]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:11am

Dave28282 said: "Like Jonathan Harris said:

Dear people & themedia,

We've learned our lesson with Jussie Smollett. NEVER again will we report accusations as fact without proof. Even if they're graphic & fit a popular narrative."

Please stop using the Jussie Smollett example as a rule when it is clearly an exception. Because one person lied publicly does not now mean that anyone who speaks out is lying.

For what it’s worth, people who make up accusations typically over indulge the details, creating a extraordinary situation in which the crime occurs, as Smollett did. The stories in Leaving Neverland are straight out of the pedophile playbook, with years of grooming, manipulation, and brainwashing. There’s nothing sensational about them. 

[TheQuibbler]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:23am

BobbyBubbi said: "It’s interesting to look at the paradox that developed in the media after the trial. Shows like SNL, MADtv, and South Park (brace yourself, some of these are pretty disgusting to watch after viewing Leaving Neverland) were “poking fun” at the sexual predatory violence towards children, and somehow Jackson’s “open secret” had become something socially acceptable enough to laugh at. What does this say about us as a society?”

 

This was something I kept thinking about while I watched the documentary, too. I have to wonder if society didn’t take these things seriously because the issues were turned into a joke. It reminded me of a similar sentiment from Hannah Gadsby’s Nannette, and while the topic is different, I think it’s applicable here, too:

“Do you know who used to be an easy punch line? Monica Lewinsky. Maybe, if comedians had done their job properly, and made fun of the man who abused his power, then perhaps we might have had a middle-aged woman with an appropriate amount of experience in the White House, instead of, as we do, a man who openly admitted to sexually assaulting vulnerable young women because he could.”

[mar6411]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:29am

TheQuibbler said: "Dave28282 said: "Like Jonathan Harris said:

Dear people & themedia,

We've learned our lesson with Jussie Smollett. NEVER again will we report accusations as fact without proof. Even if they're graphic & fit a popular narrative."

Please stop using the Jussie Smollett example as a rule when it is clearly anexception. Because one person lied publicly does not now mean that anyone who speaks out is lying.

For what it’s worth, people who make up accusations typically over indulge the details, creating a extraordinary situation in which the crime occurs, as Smollett did.The stories inLeaving Neverlandare straight out of the pedophile playbook, with years of grooming, manipulation, and brainwashing. There’s nothing sensational about them."

If you have been around for a while, you know that Dave19 (aka Dave28282) is resolute in his belief that racism, misogyny and sexual abuse do not exist - people make this stuff up.  He will never believe otherwise.  

[kdogg36]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:31am

Dave28282 said: "The most important thing is that nobody draws any conclusion before a judge has done it."

If you reflect on it, I think you'll realize this is a ridiculous standard, especially for alleged crimes that can never be adjudicated, like these (the 2005 trial was not about these particular accusations). Your principle would imply that historians could never evaluate the guilt of a whole host of wrongdoers who never faced justice.

Even for cases that resulted in acquittal, it is entirely possible to reach a different conclusion than a jury or judge, if only because the burden of proof for a criminal conviction is (and should be) very high. It's even possible for a judge or juror to think someone committed a crime but still acquit. Your proposed standard - that we should base our personal conclusions on the outcome of a trial - is not even coherent.

[BJR]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:35am

The documentary is deeply upsetting. And there are enough details told by the parents alone that set off many red flags (what grown man argues for 2 hours with a mom to take custody of a 7 yr old thousands of miles away in Australia?). To dismiss the allegations at this point is willful.

Sadly, I have zero doubt tourists will still see it. Hell, look at KING KONG. 

My main wonder if the Broadway community. You saw how they even circled around the performers of KONG, defending them from the nasty reviews. But this is a different matter.

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:44am

ErikJ972 said: "The cult of personality is strong.

I think it's pretty clear that those who accuse Wade Robsonand James Safechuck of doing this documentary for fame and fortune have not bothered to watch it. Of all of the complaints leveled at the film, this is the most ridiculous. Especially coming from the Jackson family.

This show is never going to happen."

DITTO. The vast majority of criticisms I have seen on twitter and other social media about the accusers are clearly made by people who are unfamiliar with the dynamics of grooming and sexual assault. Its strange that MJ is put on a pedestal by his fans, no other adult man in showbusiness would have this many people making excuses for him sleeping in the same bed as young boys or engaging in such overreaching or grooming-like behaviors.

 

Like others mentioned, there is no reason for this show to be made and in the #metoo era, its in incredibly poor taste. 

[Dave28282]

Posted: 3/6/19 at 8:44am

BobbyBubbi said: "I’m still struggling to understand Wade Robson and Jimmy Safechuck’s parents and how they could be so blind toJackson’s behavior, but as they explained in the Oprah interview, it was apart of a “grooming” process."

When the adult men and their parents walked out of court grinning and laughing after the trial when Michael was cleared of charges, unaware they were on camera, was that part of the "grooming process" too?