Scott Rudin takedown - Page 13

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 4/15/21 at 10:28pm

It seems important to add a few facts that people either don't know, have forgotten, or are willfully ignoring:

Investment in entertainment projects is defined legally, by all applicable U.S. state and federal laws, as a high risk investment. Only legally defined risk capital can be invested, and only qualified investors may make such investments. There is a very substantial chance of losing all monies invested in a show, and they need to be made very aware of it and totally okay with that possibility, to say nothing of able to eat the loss, tax write-off or not. What do I mean when I say "qualified investors"? According to the law: a qualified investor must have individual net worth of not less than half a million dollars -- $500,000 -- U.S. (if single; a million, if married or married with a family), and an equal amount in cash or other liquid assets to the amount they invest.

That means investing in Broadway shows is a rich person's game. Most likely a rich white person's game. Almost definitely -- no, definitely -- a rich white man's game. And if you haven't noticed in your Playbill, even they are having trouble getting it up lately. The reason there's a multitude of producers above the title of your fav (and a more than incidental amount below it, for that matter) is that the days of "[One Guy] Presents" are over. At every world media center right now, not just Broadway, it's taking more and more cooks to come up with smaller and smaller portions of the recipe, which means a producer who is still raising capital for their show at the eleventh hour cannot afford to step on toes attached to an ass they may have to kiss to cross the finish line.

Additionally... and this second point is way more brief... no man is an island, least of all Scott Rudin. For this to go unremarked, you have to realize there are more like him. Waaaaaay more.

Why won't fellow producers, theater owners, investors, landlords, ad agencies, production shops, unions, openly condemn him? There are two reasons, and they are "yes, and," not "either/or."

1) Many of them no doubt have skeletons in their own closets, and if you pull one card, the whole house can collapse.

2) They don't have to like him as a person, so long as they secure the needed funds.

Updated On: 4/15/21 at 10:28 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 4/15/21 at 10:35pm

"[A] producer who is still raising capital for their show at the eleventh hour cannot afford to step on toes attached to an ass they may have to kiss to cross the finish line." This is just gorgeous writing. That is all.

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 4/15/21 at 10:41pm

I'd love to accept the acclaim, but all the credit is due to Mavis Staples, who received advice from Quincy Jones not to step on toes on the way up attached to an ass she might have to kiss on the way down.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 4/15/21 at 10:43pm

@g.d.e.l.g.i

I think you raise valid concerns, but I think we're aware of these things more than you think. The issue is, it's still a problem that needs addressing. We know why people don't want to speak out against Rudin and/or cut ties with him. But we want them to do so anyway BECAUSE they're privileged and can handle it, and it's the right thing to do. 

As for there being more people like him...again, yes absolutely, but what do you suggest be done about it? Rudin is a big fish. Holding him accountable will ideally deter others from acting similarly, and encourage more people to demand respectful treatment in the workplace. You're right that it's short-sighted and naive to assume that all these problems would be solved by stopping Rudin. But Rudin should still be stopped. One step at a time. 

And also, if the house will come toppling down from getting rid of the abusers, the enablers, the racists, etc. then it's a house that doesn't deserve to be standing.

Updated On: 4/15/21 at 10:43 PM

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/15/21 at 11:42pm

sorry gdelgi but almost everything you say is wrong either legally or in my experience. Some of your underlying points are valid but it does not help you to make them on a false foundation. I am not inclined to go into detail here but most shows are financed under an SEC exemption and include unaccredited investors who can and regularly do invest in shows. Moreover, the threshold for accredited investor qualification ($200k in income OR $1mil (not a half) in net worth) is not "rich" in 2021. So there's that. Second, I think you will be hard pressed to find a single person in this business who thinks there are "more like" Rudin. And it may disappoint you to know that most high level producers are not scumbags in the sense you are thinking. Which is not to say that they want to get in the middle of this issue, and yes that's a huge  problem. 

ETA: I read the following post and I just want to add that we are dealing with multiple things that can't really be lumped in one pot, but right now the "Rudin issue" which I would say is sui generis needs to be dealt with or it is going to debilitate the ability to address some of these other more systemic issues.

Updated On: 4/15/21 at 11:42 PM

[Joshua Rosenthal]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 10:50am

poisonivy2 said: "Because it needs to be said again and again: "tough" and "demanding" =/= abusive.

Tough, demanding bosses demand the best work and they usually get it.

Abusive bosses cause people to shut down and quit. "

He smashed a laptop on an intern’s head

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 11:46am

Joshua Rosenthal said: "poisonivy2 said: "Because it needs to be said again and again: "tough" and "demanding" =/= abusive.

Tough, demanding bosses demand the best work and they usually get it.

Abusive bosses cause people to shut down and quit. "

He smashed a laptop on an intern’s head"

Yes and I'm saying his behavior goes way beyond "tough." It's simply abusive.

Posted: 4/16/21 at 11:50am

Joshua Rosenthal said: "He smashed a laptop on an intern’s head"

Hand, not head. Monitor, not laptop. Assistant, not intern. You got all the nouns wrong.

[PipingHotPiccolo]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 12:54pm

ctorres23 said: "Joshua Rosenthal said: "He smashed a laptop on an intern’s head"

Hand, not head. Monitor, not laptop. Assistant, not intern. You got all the nouns wrong."

none of those "corrected nouns" make the story any better/different.

 

short of the individuals directly impacted pressing charges (or trying some civil suit that i dont think would succeed) there is no legal recourse here. its not illegal to be an asshole (and it shouldnt be). the Big Names avoiding him/refusing to work with him (in Hollywood as much as NYC) is the way to go. 

 

[g.d.e.l.g.i.]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 1:28pm

HogansHero said: "sorry gdelgi but almost everything you say is wrong either legally or in my experience. Some of your underlying points are valid but it does not help you to make them on a false foundation."

Okay, let's break that down then.

"I am not inclined to go into detail here but most shows are financed under an SEC exemption and include unaccredited investors who can and regularly do invest in shows."

With all due respect, I'm afraid you have to develop the inclination or else point me to where I can do some research, because that does not track with my experience. I can't say for sure, obviously, but it doesn't sound right, and/or it's not even close to the majority of cases if it does occur. I can't see how sometimes you have people in "first class" and then the "steerage class" investor; the first person who brings a lawsuit saying you created two classes of investors will screw you good, deep, and hard. But I'd like to know more. Are you describing smaller groups of unaccredited investors in some form of LLC or partnership, where their assets combined add up to what the law considers "qualified"?

"Moreover, the threshold for accredited investor qualification ($200k in income OR$1mil (not a half) in net worth)is not "rich" in 2021. So there's that."

Technically correct, we do have a new threshold of rich in the 21st century. But how many non-rich people can afford to burn that kind of money, and have an amount equal to the amount they invest in the show still left over when they do?

"Second, I think you will be hard pressed to find a single person in this business who thinks there are "more like" Rudin. And it may disappoint you to know that most high level producers are not scumbags in the sense you are thinking. Which is not to say that they want to get in the middle of this issue, and yes that's a huge problem."

Oh, they don't think it; they know it. I've met more high level producers who I wouldn't piss on if they were burning in the street and my "hose" was the only one available than I care to remember. They may not be hurling computer monitors at people's hands, but they are absolutely scumbags on a number of levels. You don't get to the top of the heap in any field in this society by being Mary Sunshine.

[IdinaBellFoster]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 1:43pm

Brandon Uranowitz just posted this to his Instagram story:

EDIT: My brain isn't working today to figure out how to get this image to load, but here's a link:

https://imgur.com/a/e0TzTi9

At this point I think the Meredith Wilson estate needs to pull the rights. Sure it will be come a legal battle, but eventually the production may be able to proceed with Hugh & Sutton leading it, but without Rudin.

Updated On: 4/16/21 at 01:43 PM

Posted: 4/16/21 at 1:44pm

Zion24 said: "none of those "corrected nouns" make the story any better/different."

Yeah agreed, I was just marveling that he got three things wrong in an eight word sentence.

[HogansHero]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 2:51pm

@g.d.e.l.g.i. Re the exemptions and non-accredited investors etc, let me point you to the SEC's regulations  A & D (which differentiate between two ranges of capitalization with A, in effect, necessary for many/most musicals). I am sure you can find a plain English explanation on the SEC website. If you still have questions, feel free. Before I leave this, though, as I said you do have valid points because many (but not all) productions set minimum investments that push the opportunity out of reach for many. 

Re the "non-rich" affording an investment, I don't have a number but there are many. Risk aversion is not popular in some non-rich precincts. But yes, of course, an investment is more of a no-brainer for a hedge fund billionaire but a big deal for the owner of a successful chain of local coffee places. 

Re scumbags, I don't share your opinion but you are of course entitled to yours. 

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 3:00pm

ctorres23 said: "Joshua Rosenthal said: "He smashed a laptop on an intern’s head"

Hand, not head. Monitor, not laptop. Assistant, not intern. You got all the nouns wrong."

The fact that the incorrect nouns the OP used are what bother you, not the sociopathic aspect of Rudin's nature that is highlighted in either case, kinda says the whole thing. 

Updated On: 4/16/21 at 03:00 PM

[MannPhan24601]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 6:08pm

Welp, we got our first offical Rudin defender https://twitter.com/OfficialMaggieL/status/1383129185955237891?s=19

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 6:23pm

Clickable: https://twitter.com/OfficialMaggieL/status/1383129185955237891?s=19

Still seems fishy without a real source, but Rob Roth does seems like the kind of guy to say this...

[MannPhan24601]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 6:32pm

Another one I just thought about whoa vocal on these type of issues but has been silent is Judy Kuhn .... She's been a big advocate for anti abuse in the workplace . I know she's friends with Shindle

Posted: 4/16/21 at 6:51pm

MannPhan24601 said: "Welp, we got our first offical Rudin defender https://twitter.com/OfficialMaggieL/status/1383129185955237891?s=19"

An anonymously sourced email transcribed by someone supposedly looking over Roth's shoulder as he typed it on a plane. Sounds super legit. Definitely legit enough to spread it across the internet.

MannPhan24601 said: "Another one I just thought about whoa vocal on these type of issues but has been silent is Judy Kuhn .... She's been a big advocate for anti abuse in the workplace . I know she's friends with Shindle"

Can we not do the "who is silent" thing? Let people live their lives without harassing them. This is becoming very "Red Scare"-y.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 7:17pm

In this video Robin De Jesus talks about the Weisslers

[MannPhan24601]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 7:33pm

Call_me_jorge said: "Inthisvideo Robin De Jesus talks about the Weisslers"

Wonder if something similar happened to Kimoko Glenn in Waitress for her to have that temporary leave of absence that became permanent......... It was assumed at the time it was for Orange is The New Black but she never said a thing about Waitress again on her socials until the day it closed.........

 

Not the Weisslers but remember the sea of Hamilton OBC who stated in interviews they were renewing and they started leaving suddenly along with Betsy Struxness leaving early in the run. From her post about the Disney+ film, it seemed like she was forced out from some of the comments and I remember seeing some posts on here speculating the management then of course we got the drama with the Angelica tour recently

 

[JBroadway]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 7:39pm

I agree that the Bob Roth thing raises some red flags in terms of the trustworthiness of its source. I can't claim to say either way that it definitely is or isn't real, but we should all take it with a grain of salt. But then again, if you were going to make up this story, why on earth would you choose Bob Roth of all people?  

 

And I also agree that the "who is silent" game can get super toxic, super fast. You don't know who's on vacation, who's dealing with a family emergency, who's on a Twitter hiatus, who's coping with mental health issues, or a million other things. Alternately, some people could be taking time to process all of this, and find exactly the right words to say, and the right steps to take - which might even involve having a million private conversations a day with members of the community. However, I do think there's something to be said for pointing out (a) the broader trends of which segments of the community are staying silent, and which aren't, and (b) the small subset of specific people who happen to have a significant amount of leverage due to their proximity to Scott Rudin. I don't think Judy Kuhn meets those criteria. 

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 8:49pm

Yep, I think it's fine (and natural!) to side-eye a performer who's been posting as usual on social media but hasn't said a thing about this, and going after someone who's not a heavy hitter on the level of obvious stars already mentioned in this thread is probably not the best way to go.

As for the screencap, I saw the original FB post in a closed FB group (I have no idea if it was posted in multiple groups), for what it's worth.

[HenryTDobson]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 9:22pm

IdinaBellFoster said: "Brandon Uranowitz just posted this to his Instagram story:

EDIT: My brain isn't working today to figure out how to get this image to load, but here's a link:

https://imgur.com/a/e0TzTi9

At this point I think the Meredith Wilson estate needs to pull the rights. Sure it will be come a legal battle, but eventually the production may be able to proceed with Hugh & Sutton leading it, but without Rudin."

Maybe I'm biased because I'm a Sutton/Hugh fan, but it doesn't seem fair to me that they are the two expected to take action on this. I understand that having a big name has responsibilities, but this shouldn't be their mess to clean up. We have no idea what's happening behind the scenes, especially with contracts and whatnot. Do I hope they speak up? Sure. Do I blame them if they don't? Of course not. And while I love Brandon, it's easy for no-name people to try and throw blame around because there's literally zero consequences on them. It's easy for anyone to say, "If I were Hugh, I would..." because they're not and never will be. 

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 9:30pm

How many actors/musicians/backstage/tech etc will “Music Man” employ for however long it runs? How many jobs are people suggesting be effectively taken away from those who’ve been out of work for over a year, for the sole reason Rudin is attached to this?

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 4/16/21 at 9:32pm

Jordan Catalano said: "How many actors/musicians/backstage/tech etc will “Music Man” employ for however long it runs? How many jobs are people suggesting be effectively taken away from those who’ve been out of work for over a year, for the sole reason Rudin is attached to this?
"

There will be another show at the Wintergarden. TMM is not the only show in town.