Straight men playing gay men- Page 4

[Robbie2]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 5:50pm

EllieRose2 said: "Yep. Straight men are allowed to play gay men. Gay men are allowed to play straight men. I won't even acknowledge the rest of the article."

Straight men are allowed to play straight men AND Gay men are allowed to play Gay men.

Btw, aren't all the guys in BOYS in the Band GAY?

[Angel2018]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 8:20pm

kdogg36 said: "Another honest question (or four): Does Prior Walter have to have certain mannerisms that one might call stereotypical? Is it necessary for the story that he have them? Is it in the text? If so, isn't Tony Kushner kind of at fault for making his main character so stereotypical?"

Yes, that's how Prior is supposed to be played. Here's what Kushner said recently about the controversy about the casting:

"...And despite our current era of heightened identity politics, wherein straight and cis actors come under fire for stepping into queer parts, Kushner was never dismayed.

“Marianne and I both had Andrew at the top of our lists,” he says. “And he was nervous, but I was certain that he wouldn’t have any real difficulty making the imaginative, fantastic leap that he’d need to make. And we talked about certain aspects of it, but mostly, he did what he did on his own, and I was completely astounded. I think it’s one of the most remarkable performances of a contemporary gay character by a straight guy I’ve ever seen. In the United States, at any rate, you sometimes see a kind of nervousness among straight actors playing gay: ‘Am I making the character too queeny?’; ‘Is this a stereotype?’ There’s a certain misunderstanding that queenly behavior has to do with a kind of abjectness or weakness. But, of course, the opposite is true. It’s a gesture of real power. It is a refusal of hiding. Andrew and I had a lot of discussions about that, and I think that was the most important thing I could communicate. There’s great joy in that kind of gay behavior — great energy, great wit, and a great force of strength. There’s nothing wimpy about behaving like Judy Garland or Katharine Hepburn. And Andrew really grasped that instantaneously and ran with it.”

 

 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/6/18 at 10:53pm

It is a strange issue. As an actor I'd hate it if you told me I'm only allowed to play gay men because there is such a wealth, on both sides, of great roles. I liked Garfield, and it rang true to me soley because he kept the same character for 8 hours. So, it grew on me, and I believed him, but yeah, the first hour I was like "no no no, this is kind of offensive," but then I thought, I do know guys like this, etc. But, I agree, he didn't seem to inhabit his queeny self. But again, I think audiences applaud straight actors for "going there" which is annoying. And it's also annoying that once you're known as being a "gay actor" it's hard for casting directors to put you in romantic leading roles because they just think of you as gay, not as an actor.    

[Hest88]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 12:57am

SonofRobbieJ said: "It stuns me that people on this board don't understand why it would be important for gay actors to play gay roles."

I'm not gay, but I suspect I'm older than many of you, and like SonofRobbieJ I'm floored that there seems to be such blithe disregard of the historical precedents that would make the idea of casting non-gay actors in gay roles problematic. Even though there have been great inroads, the subtext that it's okay to *act* gay but not *be* gay can still very much be a reality. I don't like the term "gay face" but I don't think the implications are as silly as so many of you seem to believe.

 

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 1:14am

It's hard for me to see an outside point of view because I'm an actor, and I'd hate for someone to come to me and say "You aren't this so you can't play this" because then you have a bunch of actors who can only play their true circumstances, and that limits everyone. I see your point of view of gay people playing gay people, but I think that just limits the arts in general. 

[LuminousBeing]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 1:16am

I am not going to weigh in on this debate - but to answer your question, kdogg36, Prior calls himself "Stereotypical" in the scene in which Hannah asks him if he's a "typical homosexual." 

[dramamama611]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 7:32am

Can only Catholics play Catholics?  Someone that has experienced the Holocaust portray a character that has?  A veteran only be played by someone that has seen combat?   If you have two actors that seemingly are both perfect for the part, do I understand the LGBTQ+ person might have an edge and cast him/her?  You bet.  

That being said, I would also understand a director that chooses to only cast gay actors as gay characters - but no, I don't think it must be that way.

Tony Shalhoub has made an amazing career out of playing a myriad of ethnic characters, from Wings to Mrs. Maisel to The Band's Visit.   Can't see a problem with it, and I don't see how this is different.

And what of actors that, for whatever reason, have chosen NOT to be public with their sexuality?  Or those that would prefer not to be typed as the gay actor, so therefore not considered for roles that are hetero?

And what about young actors, still in school?   Am I suppose to INQUIRE about their sexuality before casting?  Nope.   

[Dave28282]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 7:57am

qolbinau said: ""Gay face". LOL. What will they think of next. This is RIDICULOUS. And actually offensive that someone is comparing this to the purpose and execution of Black Face. I am so frustrated at the sloppy thinking that has infected our communities."

Thanks Qolbinau, a breath of fresh air as always.

This discussion makes me think of a discussion I encountered on another forum. Someone was claiming "Fat face" in Hairspray because some girls playing Tracy wore a fat suit.

A person claimed that "only fat people should play the role, because someone who's been a size 6 dancer all their life won't understand or know to present the little things about the way a fat person lives life. How they tread lightly, keep their elbows in, do whatever they can to take up as little space as possible because they know society is judging them for the space they already occupy simply by existing." 

To which I replied: "I think this remark is a good example of what's wrong with society today. I am sure it is written with the best intentions, but what you are actually doing is harmful. You might not realize that. 

You are putting bigger people in a victim role by deciding for them how to feel. By generalizing they somehow should feel less or less worthy. Insecure. Too much. While that in itself is generalizing already it is especially wrong in this case. 

These mannerisms that every fat person probably has according to you, are not present in many fat people. Especially not in Tracy Turnblad. The role is written in a way that is the complete opposite of these mannerisms. She is not in the slightest uncomfortable with her weight. She is confident, and ready to take over the world with her personality and body. Her opening song works because there is not an inch of shame inside of her. 

So if we would apply that kind of reasoning, like what you describe would have anything to do with the casting of this character, we could even argue that either only girls with a suit should play the role, or big girls that are not in the slightest affected by what you describe, or at least don't show it in anything.

Victim labeling does not work in this case. We should be careful with that."

The reason I'm writing this is because it is the same in this "Gay face" remark. I think casting should rise above that and like JBC3 beautifully said: 

"I most want a well-acted performance. Depending on the individual, the role, and the show, the sexual orientation of the actor may or may not be a critical variable for producing that performance."

But just the victim labeling, like many people on here seem to do, is doing more harm than good.

Casting is all about showing and hiding personal traits, and some things can be hidden and some things can't. For many gay men it is very difficult and for some impossible to come across as straight. And some gay guys come across as straight naturally.  If this means lesser chance on certain roles for gay people percentage wise that's a pity, but that does not mean some kind of privilege to be able to claim roles. Because straight guys can play gay characters too, especially if it's desirable that they don't come across as gay.

Updated On: 6/7/18 at 07:57 AM

[BJR]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 7:59am

As a gay man who has cast both straight and gay actors in the role of gay characters, my two cents is there should be an awareness of the trend of choices one is making, but there shouldn't be a rule.

By trend I mean one should notice if you're casting exclusively straight actors, as that would be problemative and indicate unconscious bias. In the case of Garfield, I think he got the part not because he was straight, but because he was a big star. Hell, the original Joe in this production was gay - clearly, there was no aversion to casting gay actors.

VERY important to note I think this *only* applies to the question of sexuality, specifically cisgender gay men. When casting trans stories, trans actors should absolutely be hired. The trans community has higher umemployment rates across many fields and if trans stories are being told, then trans actors should be hired.

[MrsSallyAdams]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 8:56am

This reminds me of an episode of Glee (S3) where Grant Gustin's gay antagonist said Chris Colfer's character would never find work because he has "gay face."

The straight Gustin has gone on to a starring role in "The Flash" while Colfer has all but vanished. On the flip side our actor Ezra Miller is playing The Flash on film.

Incidentally I think Colfer has the potential to play a terrific Pror Walter. It would help him shake the stigma of Glee's final seasons.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 9:51am

BJR said: VERY important to note I think this *only* applies to the question of sexuality, specifically cisgender gay men. When casting trans stories, trans actors should absolutely be hired. The trans community has higher umemployment rates across many fields and if trans stories are being told, then trans actors should be hired."

Back in 2000, I had a bit of a (minor) success playing a transgender woman dying of AIDS.  It was a fantastic role and it's probably the experience that changed my thinking of myself as a 'musical theater actor' to just plain 'actor.'  It was essential to my development as an artist. And I would never, ever take that role now.  Never.  I was called in for the role of a trans woman not too long ago, and I panicked.  I wasn't auditioning much and so work is work.  I asked a trans actor friend their thoughts, laying out all my concerns.  He just laughed and said, 'I'm going in for another role in the same show.  Go to the audition.  Worry about all the other sh*t later.'  But I decided not to go...cause it's not my part...ya know?

No one is saying that there should be a rule.  Gay actors should play straight roles and straight actors should play gay roles.  I mean...the single best Belize I've seen is Jeffrey Wright, who I believe identifies as straight.  But he had two things in his favor: he was being directed by a black queen and he's one of the best actors alive.  So no...there should be no hard and fast rule.  But in my personal experience (which may or may not mean anything) I've seen 4 Priors and 75% have been straight...and I've found that 75% to be not entirely authentic.  I'm not offended by their portrayals...in fact, in each I saw good, smart acting.  But they weren't, in the end, fully Prior.  

And though yes, as an actor I like having the ability to play straight roles, I desperately WANT to play gay roles.  I want to be a part of weaving our stories into the fabric of our society.  I want my face to be seen and known as...well...a gay face, I guess.  I make short films with my producing partner, and after some initial fits and bursts, we realized we most want to tell the story of who we are...middle aged gay men who weren't sure they'd get to be 40.  The second film we made (for $1500 and in a weekend) ended up going to the Iris Prize festival for the best queer short films from around the world.  We put it on Youtube a month ago with very little promotion and it somehow has around 75K hits.  No idea why...except I think people respond to the truth of two gay men who have lived some life and are figuring out the world in front of them.  I think it's deeply important to tell queer stories.  And unlike some other producers, directors and playwrights, I think it is profoundly important to have actors involved that are completely invested in telling those queer stories on an intensely personal level.  And to hear people dismiss actors' desires to be able to be out and to add our voices to our stories truly breaks my f*cking heart.  

Updated On: 6/7/18 at 09:51 AM

[kdogg36]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 10:52am

Just wanted to thank everyone for your responses to my questions. I've definitely learned some things from this thread!

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 11:13am

BJR said: "VERY important to note I think this *only* applies to the question of sexuality, specifically cisgender gay men. When casting trans stories, trans actors should absolutely be hired. The trans community has higher umemployment rates across many fields and if trans stories are being told, then trans actors should be hired."

I think it was at a Hir talkback, and they were saying how difficult it even is to cast trans actors for trans roles and as soon as you make that a desire it changes from doing local auditions to making it more of a nationwide search. Plus, the other issue is that because less trans actors get cast a lot, a lot of them don't get to build up their acting chops, so you have to see even more people until you find someone you think can do the role. So there are a lot of issues there.

(That panel was a while ago, so I hope I captured their issues accurately)

[Kad]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 11:38am

Yes, it may be harder to hire trans/genderqueer performers outside of major markets. But it should be, because it's undoing decades of discrimination and difficulty at nearly every conceivable social level. Justice is hard. Equality is hard.

Can anyone really point to having trans stories told by cisgender artists as having helped change social opinion? All the advances for trans equality have been made by trans people living proudly and openly. Even Transparent, which may have been initially anchored by Jeffrey Tambor (yeesh), is firmly backed by trans artists on and offscreen.

Updated On: 6/7/18 at 11:38 AM

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 12:30pm

About Garfield's portrayal of Prior I didn't find it offensive as one-note. I felt like he started on a fever pitch and had nowhere to go and so as a result sort of screamed for 8 hours. It's like he focused on one aspect of Prior (his desperation) and decided that the portrayal would live in this hysterical, screechy state. I saw the HBO miniseries and it was such a revelation to see a Prior who was also funny, snarky, a 3-dimensional human. 

In fact one part of this revival I really disliked was how a few actors decided to go for a very obvious portrayal and ignore the shades of gray. For instance Lee Pace seems to have read the descriptions of Joe as cold, closeted, a bit of a robot, and went with that portrayal for 8 hours. It was very different from Patrick Wilson's nuanced interpretation where Joe is someone you care about despite the fact that he's sort of a s__t.

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 1:09pm

In general, I thought there was a lot of shouting in this production, which had a numbing effect on me.  I do think, though, it's hard to compare larger stage characterizations to actors who get to use the close up to excellent effect.  Didn't love Kirk in AIA, but I did love Wilson.  But I'm one of the few that felt Lee Pace was really quite wonderful in this production.  He found the wounded young man who acts out of his pain in ways that are cruel and unkind.  He moved me very much.  

[Fosse76]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 4:44pm

Gizmo6 said: "As an academic with a PhD on Queer theatre"

There's such a thing? And I thought I'd wasted my money on a physics degree!

[SonofRobbieJ]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 5:08pm

Fosse76 said: "Gizmo6 said: "As an academic with a PhD on Queer theatre"

There's such a thing? And I thought I'd wasted my money on a physics degree!"

That's a bizarrely sh*tty thing to say to someone on a theater message board.  

[MrsSallyAdams]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 5:18pm

I was discussing this thread with a friend and they pointed me towards a book: "Murder Most Queer," that analyzes the role of gay murderers in plays. I couldn't think of many but the author lists 24 examples on his website.

http://www.murdermostqueer.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzVTgGGLaNg

[vanbrig]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 7:43pm

MrsSallyAdams said: "This reminds me of an episode of Glee (S3) where Grant Gustin's gay antagonist said Chris Colfer's character would never find work because he has "gay face."

The straight Gustin has gone on to a starring role in "The Flash" while Colfer has all but vanished. On the flip side our actor Ezra Miller is playing The Flash on film.

Incidentally I think Colfer has the potential to play a terrific Pror Walter. It would help him shake the stigma of Glee's final seasons."

Has Chris Colfer even been trying to find acting work? Last I heard, he's been doing pretty well for himself writing a bunch of children's books. Not saying your point isn't valid (because it is), but in this case it may have been more a personal choice on Colfer's part. 

[JBC3]

Posted: 6/7/18 at 9:14pm

Jeffrey Wright was so damn good as Belize. His nonverbals on the TONY highlights reel are incredible, evoking audience responses in spots beyond what anyone else has ever done.

[SweetLips]

Posted: 6/9/18 at 11:36pm

God, I must have won the Gay trifecta--gay face, gay voice and dance like a gay. What's the prize?

73 years of absolute joyous living.

PS..I was supposed to SMOKE in a play and be serious [be serious!] and actually TALK with the thing hanging off my lip ! Smoke in my eyes, up my nose, spluttering, not pretty, and certainly NOT butch though I tried. But you should have seen the way I put that cigarette out--applause every performance.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/9/18 at 11:45pm

SonofRobbieJ said: "Fosse76 said: "Gizmo6 said: "As an academic with a PhD on Queer theatre"

There's such a thing? And I thought I'd wasted my money on a physics degree!"

That's a bizarrely sh*tty thing to say to someone on a theater message board."

Seriously. Unless Gizmo6 is struggling financially or professionally (which can happen no matter what degree you get), or regrets getting (which Gizmo6 does not seem to) then obviously it was not a waste of money.