Bootleg/Filming Shows Discussion - Page 3

[JSquared2]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 4:00pm

George in DC said: "As has been noted several times, Bootlegs have been around forever.

It has been said that to appreciate the late Maria Callas fully, you had to hear her live, studio recordings never did her justice. Consequently there were many bootlegs of her performances that were widely distributed. Nowadays these recording are not only celebrated for their historical significance by preserving her thrilling performances but they are openly sold commercially. Time changes everything."

 

Hate to break the news to you, but bootleg recordings of concerts are still not "live", so in what way are they allowing people to experience hearing Ms. Callas live?

 

 

[UncleCharlie]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 4:47pm

JSquared2 said: "George in DC said: "As has been noted several times, Bootlegs have been around forever.

It has been said that to appreciate the late Maria Callas fully, you had to hear her live, studio recordings never did her justice. Consequently there were many bootlegs of her performances that were widely distributed. Nowadays these recording are not only celebrated for their historical significance by preserving her thrilling performances but they are openly sold commercially. Time changes everything."



Hate to break the news to you, but bootleg recordings of concerts are still not "live", so in what way are they allowing people to experience hearing Ms. Callas live?


And ironically, especially with the state of technology in those days, those bootlegs would have had to be of much poorer quality in capturing her talent than a professionally produced studio recording. Not sure how anyone could feel that those bootlegs would be superior. I would venture to say the motives then were no different than they are today, that they just wanted to see the performance without buying a ticket for whatever reason rather than resorting to it as a last resort after finding her studio recordings just not doing it for them.
 

 

[George in DC]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 4:59pm

I meant live in front of an audience. Her performance when she was in front of an audience was much different than in from of a microphone.

 

The point was that bootlegs of her performances - once considered "illegal" are now considered "Historical Recordings" and sold commercially.

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 5:13pm

I had a teacher in college who was not only anti-bootleg, but anti filming... AND anti cast recording. He was a purist who believed in the ephemeral nature of stage works, and he was nostalgic for the days of the encore, when you could stop a show and cheer to hear the song again, the better to bask in it since you couldn't take the record home with you.

And he was a young dude, not someone who remembered seeing Ethel Merman sing "I Don't Know Why." Friggin' hipsters.

[Dollypop]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 6:19pm

I've seen HELLO, DOLLY! almost 100 times and own several bootlegs of it. The more recent ones are of remarkable quality.

I'm not exaggerating when I say I couldn't live without them.

A day without DOLLY is a day without sunshine.

[IAMREADING]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 8:48pm

I thought Mariah was railing against audio bootlegs, not film but I could be wrong. I think until every theatre incorporates Yondr, every performance will be at least audio bootlegged...

I personally love audiobootlegs, it's fun to hear the whole show esp. when i'm bored (ex. at work) and I love listening to bootlegs from previews, etc. to hear cut songs and lyrics. They are not distracting to the cast as the phone is not out or anything.. however, I do feel bad for people like Mariah who have to see negative comments to their bootlegged audio on youtube..so I see how it can affect the cast in that way.

I know it's disrespectful to the IP and stuff to bootleg but I guess I am selfish and don't care enough about that to not pay $1 from some tumblr user for them.

[seahag2]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 9:37pm

I'm not sure where I stand in the bootleg conversation because I didn't consume them in the era of high-quality, publicly available youtube bootlegs of current and popular shows, but rather in the days of entering a password on some livejournal site to access a shaky (and sometimes taken-down) private vimeo bootleg cut up in 14 parts. I think that distinction is important because the latter required a dedicated hunt. I am also not really into the comments that say "you can just see other art, like at a museum" because if you're a theater kid, you're craving that musical theatre song and dance (and I'm not even going to go into lack of access a lot of kids have to museums around the country). Even suggesting someone wait for a tour or amateur production to come along is not my favorite idea because let me tell you - I've waited and a lot of shows do NOT ever come. Growing up far from NYC, bootlegs were a way for me to see the songs I would listen to over and over again put into the context of dialogue and scenes. I used to say Next to Normal was my favorite musical and to this day I have never seen a live production. I fell in love with the music first, and probably a combination of having the contextual skills of a 12 year old and no access to the script, I didn't realize Diana left Dan at the end. That is, until I got my hands on the libretto (which was not easy to find in person and could not order online because I didn't have a debit card yet) and sat down with a ****ty bootleg on my ****ty notebook laptop and the show's script. This was maybe a full year after finding the OBCR at my public library. The music can sometimes only get you so far, and you obviously learn more about the show as a whole when you have access to everything else about it (besides its live component...).  I wasn't trying to see art in a museum or get my Next to Normal fix. I needed to see Next to Normal with the same original broadway actors that I had listened to. Maybe that makes me demanding lol. I don't consume bootlegs anymore because there isn't much that I desperately want to see (if I miss it, I miss it) but I also remember that so many of the people who I consumed bootlegs with were middle/high schoolers farrrr from the city and even the Northeast, and I remember the joy of finding that one show that your heart NEEDED to see in its (almost) full glory. Also want to add that I don't find watching bootlegs particularly enjoyable, but saw them as a last resort when I couldn't find a free .pdf of the script or I just really needed to see how a scene was blocked and what the transitions looked like. I would pay full price for a ticket of the show over watching a free and illegal bootleg any day. But when you're a 12 year old in the South and have never been to New York in your life, you find yourself getting desperate. If ticket sales are in question -- Will people not pay to see the show because they've already 'seen' it via bootleg? -- I don't think that's a serious concern. But then again other people don't think like me.

all that said i know there are a lot of legal issues regarding Equity, royalties, licensing, creative protection, actor rights, and the distribution of bootlegs and recognize that I have never been negatively affected by bootlegs so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ..... though in the future I might be so this opinion is subject to change hahaha 

Updated On: 10/3/19 at 09:37 PM

[gregnyc2]

Posted: 10/3/19 at 10:14pm

How many actors/directors/production team artists have bootlegs in their shelves at home?

[PatrickDC]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:45am

i will admit I’ve bought 5 or 6 bootlegs over the years, but they were all shows that I first paid to see, and I don’t resell or even share the DVDs. They’re for my own use. Not trying to justify the theft, but if one buys a ticket (and because I only get to NYC a couple times a year I pay lots of money for excellent seats ... I’m looking at you, Moulin Rouge and the $349 ticket), does it make a difference if I want to relive the experience, versus someone who never bought a ticket to a show and only watches its bootleg? 

[magictodo123]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 7:35am

seahag2 said: "I'm not sure where I stand in the bootleg conversation because I didn't consume them in the era of high-quality, publicly available youtube bootlegs of current and popular shows, but rather in the days ofentering a password on somelivejournal site to access a shaky (and sometimes taken-down) private vimeo bootleg cut up in 14 parts. I think that distinction is important because the latter required a dedicated hunt. I am also not really into the comments that say "you can just see other art, like at a museum" because if you're a theater kid, you're craving that musical theatre song and dance (and I'm not even going to go into lack of access a lot of kids have to museums around the country). Even suggesting someone wait for a tour or amateur production to come along is not my favorite idea because let me tell you - I've waited and a lot of shows do NOT ever come. Growing up far from NYC, bootlegs were a way for me to see the songs I would listen to over and over again put into the context of dialogue and scenes. I used to say Next to Normal was my favorite musical and to this day I have never seen a live production. I fell in love with the music first, and probably a combination of having the contextual skills of a 12 year old and no access to the script, I didn't realize Diana leftDan at the end. That is, until I got my hands on the libretto (which was not easy to find in person and could not order online because I didn't have a debit card yet) and sat down with a ****ty bootleg on my ****ty notebook laptop and the show's script. This was maybe a full year after finding the OBCR at my public library.The music can sometimes only get you so far, and you obviously learn more about the show as a whole when you have access to everything else about it (besides its live component...). I wasn't trying to see art in a museum or get my Next to Normal fix. I needed to see Next to Normal with the same original broadway actors that I had listened to. Maybe that makes me demanding lol. I don't consume bootlegs anymore because there isn't much that I desperately want to see (if I miss it, I miss it) but I also remember that so many of the people who I consumed bootlegs with were middle/high schoolers farrrr from the city and even the Northeast, and I remember the joy of finding that one show that your heart NEEDED to see in its (almost) full glory. Also want to add that I don't find watching bootlegs particularly enjoyable, but saw them as a last resort when I couldn't find a free .pdf of the script or I just really needed to see how a scene was blocked and what the transitions looked like. I would pay full price for a ticket of the show over watching a free and illegal bootleg any day. But when you're a 12 year old in the South and have never been to New York in your life, you find yourself getting desperate. If ticket sales are in question-- Will people not pay to see the show because they've already 'seen' it via bootleg? -- I don't think that's a serious concern. But then again other people don't think like me.

all that said i know there are a lot of legal issues regarding Equity, royalties, licensing, creative protection, actor rights, and the distribution of bootlegs and recognize that I have never been negatively affected by bootlegs so¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ..... though in the future I might be so this opinion is subject to change hahaha"

Theater is special and meant to be experienced live, through your own eyes. Your ticket doesn't entitle you to record a show. People say they don't have access to theater, but maybe sometimes, you just have to deal with not being able to see a show you deem your favorite even if you  haven't seen a live production. Theater is not something where you can say, I don't care about the actors and how illegal it is to record, I want to be able to experience it on my own time. That's Not how it works. People miss shows they want to see all the time. It happens. There are probably hundreds of people who want to see shows, want to see limited run productions, but hey guess what--that happens. It doesn't mean it's okay for someone else seeing it to record it. if you can't experience it live, there are SO many other ways to experience things. I think this borders on being selfish and inconsiderate to the production (everyone involved-actors, creative team, crew). Theater is meant to be a special thing, not something you see and decide you love it so much that you deserve your own personal recording. That's not how it works. That's being completely selfish. Do you think your wanting to experience it again but illegally is more important than letting the actors do their best work? 

[JSquared2]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 11:54am

PatrickDC said: "i will admit I’ve bought 5 or 6 bootlegs over the years, but they were all shows that I first paid to see, and I don’t resell or even share the DVDs. They’re for my own use. Nottrying to justify the theft, but if one buys a ticket (and because I only get to NYC acoupletimes a year I pay lots of money for excellent seats ... I’m looking at you, Moulin Rouge and the $349 ticket), does it make a difference if I want to relive the experience, versus someone who never bought a ticket to a show and only watches its bootleg?"

No it does not make a difference.  You are still stealing.  Your ticket (regardless of what you paid for it or how far you traveled) entitles you to a single viewing.  Theatre is not like the free refill station at your local Fuddruckers. 

 

[binau]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:03pm

Dollypop said: "I've seen HELLO, DOLLY! almost 100 times and own several bootlegs of it. The more recent ones are of remarkable quality.

I'm not exaggerating when I say I couldn't live without them.

A day without DOLLY is a day without sunshine."

Thank you. While I don't really watch or like video bootlegs, the quality of audio bootlegs really is increasing rapidly and it is an absolute joy for me to hear Bernadette Peters coming down those stairs again and remember some of the greatest theatre-going experiences in my life. We are very myopic - in 30 years, when Bernadette Peters will sadly no longer be with us, and when I am old and grey and full of sleep - and when the current generation of theatre fans don't even know who Bernadette Peters is, these recordings are going to be the only memory of her performance accessible on an every-day basis (i.e., not the lincoln archive) and I am grateful for it.

[Call_me_jorge]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:03pm

People who think watching/recording bootlegs is the equivalent to stealing money, are the same people who watch Les Miserables thinking Javert is the good guy.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:19pm

Oh, please - justify all you want - You are still in the wrong. 

[Fetus]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:22pm

The stealing argument is so over-dramatic and unnecessary. Stealing implies loss, and for a majority of bootlegs in circulation, these productions have long closed and their bootlegs in no way negatively or financially impact the producers, actors or creative teams involved. Maybe it's just something for bored uptight users to scream about, I'm not sure.

Your moral compass won't be shaken if you listen to an audio bootleg of Carol Channing in Dolly or watch the OBC Dreamgirls video. There are far worse problems in the industry that could use the energy people are using to argue against bootlegs.

[binau]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:36pm

In some cases, such as Carrie, bootlegs are the only reason the show survived and had a second life. In the  2011 'pre-off-broadway preview' night where the creators thanked Betty Buckley for her performance, the audience clapped. I'd say not even half of those people actually see Betty Buckley in the role.

If people use bootlegs as an alternative to actually seeing a show (and could afford to go otherwise) I see it as a problem, that's not for me though. The quality just isn't high enough, I have to see a show live.

That said, one of the few shows I listen to a bootleg of that I couldn't see is Betty Buckley in Dear World, but I make no apologies. I love that I can listen to Betty Buckley in the role.


Last, I would be interested to know how much people here who complain about bootlegs also spend on the actual theatre tickets - sorry but you can't get on a high horse that bootlegs involve stealing or don't support theatre if you frequently pay less than full price. 

Updated On: 10/4/19 at 12:36 PM

[RaisedOnMusicals]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 12:56pm

Call_me_jorge said: "People who think watching/recording bootlegs is the equivalent to stealing money, are the same people who watch Les Miserables thinking Javert is the good guy."

There are many things other than money that can be stolen, like intellectual property for example. (Let's define it as the taking of anything of value without the consent of the owner.).

I know this thread is meant to be civil, so I'll say is that after reading this post, I can think of other things to call you other than Jorge. 

 

[darquegk]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 1:25pm

These things feel urgent and moral when looked at in present tense, and utterly silly in past tense. Like if a video of the Tom O'Horgan Jesus Christ Superstar surfaced, you wouldn't watch it on moral grounds?

In fact, I believe the well-known bootlegs of the original "Carrie" are in the Library of Congress now, thanks to the efforts of kitsch chronicler Vinnie Rattolle.

[Lot666]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 1:30pm

What about all the people who go to Disneyland or Walt Disney World and regularly film the stage shows or the fireworks shows with original scores?

[MollyJeanneMusic]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 1:59pm

While I obviously don’t condone filming Broadway shows, I shall quote every internet safety brochure ever: once it’s on the internet, it’s out there forever. So then, ESPECIALLY if a show has closed and there is no other way of seeing/hearing it (Deaf West Spring Awakening, I’m looking at you), I feel slightly more justified in watching a bootleg. That being said, I do try to be responsible (if that word can even be used in this context) about watching bootlegs: I don’t watch a show unless I know for a fact that I won’t be able to see that show live, or through a professionally filmed recording. The only exception was that in June 2018, I watched a Waitress bootleg, thinking I wouldn’t get to see the show live; I then fell in love with the show thanks to the bootleg, and in January 2019, my family and I paid $500+ dollars to see the show - all because of a bootleg. I also gauge the actors’ responses themselves: if they openly admit that they’ve watched a bootleg of their own show, I have no qualms about watching it myself. For example, Patrick Page posted a bootlegged clip of himself in Hunchback at La Jolla, and I then felt free to watch the show, knowing that at least one person on the other side of the camera approved enough to repost the video themselves.

[haterobics]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 2:00pm

Lot666 said: "What about all the people who go to Disneyland or Walt Disney World and regularly film the stage shows or the fireworks shows with originalscores?"

I think they allow/encourage it? Just no flash at indoor shows.

[PatrickDC]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 2:52pm

haterobics said: "Lot666 said: "What about all the people who go to Disneyland or Walt Disney World and regularly film the stage shows or the fireworks shows with originalscores?"

I think they allow/encourage it? Just no flash at indoor shows."

YouTube is packed with Disney shows and parades  I continually listen to the parade video or audio clip of Soundational and Festival of Fantasy among many others  the scores are nothing short of brilliant in my opinion  if I go deaf one day it will be because I listened to Soundsational too loudly on my headphones! 

They also openly let people tape the POV on their rides  Think of the amount and variety of intellectual property in Pirates and the Haunted Mansion. I suppose people will ALWAYS visit Disney parks and having ride videos posted online doesn’t affect their revenue  I can see some people outside NYC seeing a bootleg of a Broadway show and think, meh, I saw it, no need to travel to NYC and buy a ticket. 

[seahag2]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 5:33pm

yeah like i said, i don't consume bootlegs anymore and i am more aware of how it puts the cast/crew/creatives at a disadvantage but as a teenager that didn't really come across my radar so i understand why bootlegs are so in-demand with younger crowds. if it's in demand, someone is going to supply. bootlegs are inevitable so its really up to the theatre fan to consume or not. i mean yeah you can tell some random super fan that they're selfish or they don't deserve to have a recording or that they are disrespecting the artists but it's not going to stop them. but at least they'll know that some people out there (creatives and bww forum posters alike) think they're scum! i always think bootleg convos are interesting because you hear so many different perspectives but..... ultimately they do nothing

Updated On: 10/4/19 at 05:33 PM

[Fosse76]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 6:10pm

Some objective facts:

1. Bootlegging is not, by any legal definition, "stealing." While there can be criminal penalties, copyright infringement is mostly a civil matter.

2. It not a crime or copyright violation to buy/own or give away "bootlegs." Creating and selling do violate copyright law, however,

3. It's absurd to think that the mass availability of bootlegs has any effect on box office sales. There is no evidence to suggest it. Even in the film industry actual numbers are hard to prove. Wicked and Phantom are the most bootlegged shows, yet they are still running. And considering how old those shows are, any downturns can be attributed to the shows' shelflives, not the avaiolability of bootlegs.

Subjective points:

A. People who create and sell "bootlegs" are denying the artists and creatives the just compensation for their work. And people who buy them are enablers.

B. Whether or not you live in an area that hosts national tours or not is irrelevant. Bootlegs are morally wrong, and their creation is illegal.

C. For all the outrage, I guaranty that most (though not all) of the people in this thread (in addition to the outspoken theater professionals) who are critical and hostile to bootlegs own their fair share of bootlegs. 

D. After the passing of time, bootlegs are often looked at with nostalgia by the original artists. That doesn't necessarily justify their creation, but they are often the only "record" of something. Bootleg footage is often shown in documentaries. And has often been said, sometimes these bootlegs are created by the artists or creatives themselves,

[PatrickDC]

Posted: 10/4/19 at 6:41pm

Fosse76 said: "
3. It's absurd to think that the mass availability of bootlegs has any effect on box office sales. There is no evidence to suggest it. Even in the film industry actual numbers are hard to prove. Wicked and Phantom are the most bootlegged shows, yet they are still running. And considering how old those shows are, any downturns can be attributed to the shows' shelflives, not the avaiolability of bootlegs."

Doesn't the ATW report around Tony time every year that "this season broke all box office records!" I often think it's hyperbole, but may be factual. (The San Francisco AIDS Walk every year raises more money regardless of the economy so same thing there. I'm sure it's factual, but I always wonder if they stretch the truth a bit to grab a headline.) So the growing proliferation of boots doesn't appear to be hurting the B'way Bank. 

Anyway to your point 3, though it's not a bootleg, the film of Phantom from so many years ago -- see what I did there -- has done nothing to slow ticket sales, and I assume The Lion King will continue to sell out for years to come despite the recent film and still beloved orginal source material. Should the Wicked film ever happen, I bet the seats at the Gershwin will remain filled, too. 

If anything, the often inferior quality of bootlegs maybe makes people desire to see the actual show. Some of the boots I have have extended periods of darkness and just audio, long shots of the theater ceiling, the bald spot on the man in front, etc. As I said earlier, I don't have the boots I have to experience the show for the first time, but rather to relive it. One such boot is The Cher Show which I adore and saw twice. I have my memories, but seeing it again thrills me.