Cameron Mackintosh transphobic comments- Page 2

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 8:46pm

Jordan Catalano said: "Joevitus, still waiting for you to explain what the hell you’re talking about."

Wasn't at my laptop. Unless I'm wrong, and I'll totally own it if I am, you've called people bigots in the New Deal for Broadway thread for rejecting a policy in which people will be castigated for choosing white people for their creative teams, when there's no way to know if said persons chosen were chosen for their skin color or their talent. But here you're okay with the biggest producer in Western theater explicitly saying he will not cast trans people in roles because they are trans. 

[FANtomFollies]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 8:48pm

Jordan Catalano said: "It always amuses me that people are outraged when people who are heading towards 80 years old aren’t as open minded as they are."

Old age is no excuse for hateful comments.

[IAMREADING]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 8:52pm

Alexander Lamar said: "There’s a difference between casting a trans actor and making a character trans as a plot point but he’s a ****ing idiot and probably doesn’t realize that.”

Exactly lol.. he seems to think the character would then have to explain themselves

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 9:04pm

joevitus said: "Jordan Catalano said: "Joevitus, still waiting for you to explain what the hell you’re talking about."

Wasn't at my laptop. Unless I'm wrong, and I'll totally own it if I am, you've called people bigots in the New Deal for Broadway thread for rejecting a policy in which people will be castigated for choosing white people for their creative teams, when there's no way to know if said persons chosen were chosen for their skin color or their talent. But here you're okay with the biggest producer in Western theater explicitly saying he will not cast trans people in roles because they are trans."

 

Yeah, my only post in that entire thread was suggesting they name a theatre for Gregory Hines. So before you go on about suggesting people are racist or any other kind of bigot check your damn facts. 

As for my comment on THIS thread, I never said it excuses him - I said I’m amused people are surprised when older people are slow to adapt. Stop reading sh*t into comments that you WANT to be there, that isn’t. It doesn’t score you any bonus points.

 

[Kad]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 9:07pm

JSquared2 said: "FANtomFollies said: "Daily Mail article

Les Miserables and Mary Poppins producer Sir Cameron Mackintosh slams idea of giving transgender people roles in classic shows as 'gimmick casting'

• CameronMackintosh said shows shouldn't be rewritten for transgender actors
• Producer of Les Miserables and Mary Poppins argued it would damage storylines
• Said casting transwomen as leads is 'trying to force something that isn't natural'
• Added it would be 'gimmick casting' because it 'isn't inherently there in the story'

"

Bravo! Good for him."

Why are you so committed to being so vile?

[FANtomFollies]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 9:11pm

Jordan Catalano said: As for my comment on THIS thread, I never said it excuses him - I said I’m amused people are surprised when olderpeople are slow to adapt. Stop reading sh*t into comments that you WANT to be there, that isn’t. It doesn’t score you any bonus points."

I'm not surprised by his comments, I am angered and hurt by them.

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 9:56pm

Jordan Catalano said: "joevitus said: "Jordan Catalano said: "Joevitus, still waiting for you to explain what the hell you’re talking about."

Wasn't at my laptop. Unless I'm wrong, and I'll totally own it if I am, you've called people bigots in the New Deal for Broadway thread for rejecting a policy in which people will be castigated for choosing white people for their creative teams, when there's no way to know if said persons chosen were chosen for their skin color or their talent. But here you're okay with the biggest producer in Western theater explicitly saying he will not cast trans people in roles because they are trans."



Yeah, my only post in that entire thread was suggesting they name a theatre for Gregory Hines. So before you go on about suggesting people are racist or any other kind of bigot check your damn facts.

As for my comment on THIS thread, I never said it excuses him - I said I’m amused people are surprised when olderpeople are slow to adapt. Stop reading sh*t into comments that you WANT to be there, that isn’t. It doesn’t score you any bonus points.

"

I obviously confused you with someone else, and I apologize. 

[msmp]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 11:07pm

These feel like the exact same arguments once used to keep Black performers and other performers of color from being cast in leading roles. Sure, there are probably moments where race (someone brought up Porgy and Bess which seems a good example there) or gender could be relevant, but to blanket dismiss the idea of casting trans people is patently offensive.

I wonder how he feels about the cis actors who have routinely been cast in trans roles (more common in film than theatre, but still an issue).

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 8/27/21 at 11:42pm

Well the theatre internet blew up about this one today.

I think Macintosh really put his foot in his mouth given the current climate regarding trans issues and casting in general. It’s such a tricky subject. I mean, why use Mary Poppins as an example? In the stage version it’s a high soprano role even many cis women would have difficulty singing. What is he even trying to say? The score shouldn’t be transposed for a trans woman? What about a trans man playing Enjrolas? Vocally much easier to accomplish. I mean, where was he even going with this? Sometimes it’s better to just say nothing.

I will say this though: casting is part of the storytelling. Music aside, having a trans woman play Mary Poppins would inherently change the show. Not necessarily a bad thing. When the late Black actor Lawrence Clayton played Jean Valjean, it made the story feel different than when a white man played it due to the implications of a Black man being hounded by the law, etc. Javert suddenly felt like a racist character. Personally I think this is the kind of thing that makes revisiting shows with different casts so much fun and so interesting, but yeah of course these kinds of choices change the show. Again, this is part of what makes theatre so cool.

Non-traditional casting isn’t automatically the best choice in every situation. But it can be artistically effective and yes, inclusivity is just a practice that benefits everyone.

But yeah, he’s 73. Not an excuse, but your grandparents probably feel the same way. He’s a product of his generation. Just ignore him. He’ll be dead in a few years anyway.

[Alexander Lamar]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 12:14am

The Distinctive Baritone said: "
I will say this though: casting is part of the storytelling. Music aside, having a trans woman play Mary Poppins would inherently change the show. Not necessarily a bad thing. When the late Black actor Lawrence Clayton played Jean Valjean, it made the story feel different than when a white man played it due to the implications of a Black man being hounded by the law, etc. Javert suddenly felt like a racist character. Personally I think this is the kind of thing that makes revisiting shows with different casts so much fun and so interesting, but yeah of course these kinds of choices change the show. Again, this is part of what makes theatre so cool."

The difference is you can look at a black person and clearly see they are black. You can cast a trans actor into a role and no one would have any clue they aren’t cisgender unless you made that “the story.”

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 12:26am

The Distinctive Baritone said: "I mean, why use Mary Poppins as an example? In the stage version it’s a high soprano role even many cis women would have difficulty singing. What is he even trying to say? The score shouldn’t be transposed for a trans woman?"

I think it betrays an deep-seated prejudice and a lack of understanding. I don't think he's seen trans women audition and thought none of them could meet the demands of the role. There are cis men who could sing the score as written. The rejection comes from the disgust. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 2:08am

The Distinctive Baritone said: "But yeah, he’s 73. Not an excuse, but your grandparents probably feel the same way. He’s a product of his generation."

I beg to differ. I know plenty of 73 year olds (and older) both socially and professionally. Yes of course they have had to adjust to lots of things in the 21st Century, but they are not stupid and they have. Are there people like CM who are tone deaf on this and many other issues, terms, technology, etc.? Yes of course. It's not an excuse for someone who is retired and has no significant public exposure. It's pathetic for someone who purports to be a part of the show business world. Let's not apologize for his age. If he can't keep up, he should go home and be taken care of. He can afford that. 

 

[sng]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 2:36am

what's with this pandemic and bringing Broadway assholes to light?

 And this man also cast a white man to play a Vietnamese.  Time for retirement

[devonian.t]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 2:44am

¿Macavity? said: "It just reads as cruel and out of touch. Why is CamMac trying so hard to wreck his legacy?? He's taken one heck of a dive the last few years and been painful to watch."

He was always like that- it's just these things come to light more readily nowadays.

[JBroadway]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 10:41am

Beautiful response from Alexandra Billings

https://www.broadwayworld.com/article/Alexandra-Billings-Speaks-Out-Against-Cameron-Mackintosh-Calling-the-Casting-of-Trans-Actors-a-Gimmick-20210828

[TotallyEffed]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 10:47am

Fierce response.

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 11:32am

Great response! She’s a gem.

[Owen22]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 12:00pm

JBroadway said: "joevitus said: "I would also agree casting a transperson, depending on the show, could damage the storyline (as casting a white person as Porgy or Bess would damage the storyline of that work, or casting a 23 year old as the older version of one of the principles in Follies would damage the storyline of that work, etc.)."



Depending on the show? Maybe. If a show were to feature plot points that specifically center around the anatomy of a character's body, then I can see a situation where this is true. But even that's debatable and conditional - not all trans women have the same anatomy as each other,plus some trans people may "pass" as cis onstage or onscreen. For example, the recent movie "Together Together" featured a trans actress playing a woman who becomes pregnant, and it totally read as realistic to me. And that's on film, where it's much harder to suspend disbelief.

Offhand, I can't think of a single Cameron Mackintosh show that wouldn't be able to cast trans actors - either because it doesn't matter to the story (e.g - why couldn't Mary Poppins be trans?) or because the shows already call for suspension of disbelief (POC have been cast in Les Mis for decades, and nobody cares about the historical inaccuracies).

BTW - a disclaimer about what I just wrote:

I know that discussions around "passing" can be particularly sensitive in the trans community, because it runs a constant risk of coming across as a positive/negative dichotomy - i.e "passing = good" "non-passing = bad" which is of course, a very toxic way of thinking about trans people's gender presentation. So I just want to clarify that when I defend trans casting by citing that some trans actors can pass as cis, I only mean that in regards to the hyper-specific cases where a character's anatomy is important to the story, and the piece doesn't allow for suspension of disbelief."

No. No, no, no. It's not about "passing". It's about "pretending". Which all theatre is, really. As much as we focus on "the truth" of the stage, everyone in that theatre is merely mass-pretending that what is happening is real.  That is what makes theatre special. But would we be thinking Mary Poppins is trans?  Or is she "passing" as a cis woman? No. She would be pretending to be cis woman Mary Poppins. And we all would be in agreement as we watch.   It's just like colorblind casting.  Where it seems illiberal to say, but completely true that (mostly) a person of color is "pretending" to play someone white.  You can stretch the truth to snapping by saying Audra's African American Lizzie in "110 in the Shade" would be as loved and respected in that small Oklahoma town of that time period, but that would most probably not be accurate. Audra was playing white. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!  As for a trans woman cast as a cis woman, well, she would be pretending to be a cis woman. And there is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 12:49pm

"And just so we're clear; you don't have to make room for me. I take up my own space and that was given to me by a power much greater and far more powerful than you."

Alexandra SPITTIN Fax!

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 1:17pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "I mean, why use Mary Poppins as an example? In the stage version it’s a high soprano role even many cis women would have difficulty singing. What is he even trying to say? The score shouldn’t be transposed for a trans woman? What about a trans man playing Enjrolas? Vocally much easier to accomplish. I mean, where was he even going with this? Sometimes it’s better to just say nothing.
"

I mean honestly, talking about the implausibility of finding many Transwomen who can perform the role is kind of a moot point. There are certainly a fair share of Cis Men Sopranos so it stands to rights there could be a fair amount of Transwomen Sopranos. That's not even bringing into the conversation of Transwomen who when they transition can have their registers dramatically change. I think it's a bit minimizing of the abilities of Transwomen to write off his example of Mary Poppins to be silly.

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 1:18pm

Your woke nonsense does not appeal to everyone.

Updated On: 8/28/21 at 01:18 PM

[Kad]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 1:20pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "Your woke nonsense does not appeal to everyone."

So that’s a no on whether you think trans women are women, got it.

[Sutton Ross]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 1:23pm

BWAY Baby2 said: "Your woke nonsense does not appeal to everyone."

Why do you dismiss it as nonsense? I genuinely am asking. 

[BWAY Baby2]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 1:29pm

Trans women are trans women- and everyone should have equal access to every aspect of life. I respect the right of everyone to make choices regarding their own bodes and destinies - on every level- and I respect and honor those choices. Life is difficult enough for everyone without additional discrimination on any level. That does not mean that every white character should now be portrayed by a POC- or that even role in every play is suited for every trans person. I loved seeing gay men in Boys In The Band- and would not want to see a white woman as Celie in Color Purple.  I do think the pendulum is swinging too far to the left in certain areas- and I will leave it at that.

Updated On: 8/28/21 at 01:29 PM

[saxpower]

Posted: 8/28/21 at 1:56pm

Before I start, let me ask you to read what I say carefully.  I fully believe CM's comments are unacceptable. 

  As others have said, if a trans person was to get a part, that pre-supposes the performer can sing the role as written range-wise (they aren't going to have a cast learn the score in a new key to accommodate someone's range, trans or not.)  I can easily see a situation where an audience could see a show and not even be aware a performer is trans.

  It is the fact that trans performers can be in a show without changing the score that creates the possibility of it being used as a gimmick.  Let me explain before you roast me.   Some producers could use that fact a trans person is in the case as a "draw"- almost like stunt casting.  (I am NOT saying casting a trans performer is a stunt in and of itself).  Putting trans people in roles is fine.. but doing so only for publicity is actually disrespectful and insulting.   I'm not saying CM was saying this- it was what I HOPED he meant when I read the headlines.

   Again, to be clear:  (a) CM's comments are unacceptable  and (b) there's no reason not to cast trans people- just do it for the right reasons.