Update: AIN'T NO MO extended thru December 23! Yay!- Page 2

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 12/9/22 at 11:26pm

lily carver said: "I was there tonight and Mr. Cooper made an impassioned speech partly attacking Broadway for not being more open to plays like his.He kept saying Broadway has to change.”


Yes. Attack Broadway for people not wanting to see your show. That’s exactly what’s needed. Not promotion or trying to sell your show but attacks on the community thats actually putting your show on. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Kad]

Posted: 12/9/22 at 11:40pm

I’m more keyed into Broadway happenings than the average American, and I’ve seen very little in the way of promotion of Ain’t No Mo. And the marketing that I have seen isn’t very compelling. Not unlike K-Pop. And also like K-Pop, Ain’t No Mo is a Broadway transfer of an Off-Broadway production years after the fact. The momentum is evaporated.
 

The average ticket buyer on Broadway is white and in their mid/late 40s. If you’re appealing to a broader audience- and you should! - it takes a marketing team that actually knows how to reach these audiences. Otherwise, you have to persuade the average ticket buyer- which you also should be doing. There is absolutely some baked in systemic racism in how these marketing campaigns are done. But it takes savvy producers to push against it. 
 

 

Updated On: 12/9/22 at 11:40 PM

[Ke3]

Posted: 12/9/22 at 11:43pm

Jordan Catalano said: "lily carver said: "I was there tonight and Mr. Cooper made an impassioned speech partly attacking Broadway for not being more open to plays like his.He kept saying Broadway has to change.”


Yes. Attack Broadway for people not wanting to see your show. That’s exactly what’s needed. Not promotion or trying to sell your show but attacks on the community thats actually putting your show on. Makes perfect sense.

"

There is no "community" putting this show on. There are producers putting on a show in an effort to either make money or in rare cases because they're altruistic and believe it needs to be there. The idea of Broadway being some loving community and not a business is exactly what leads us to delusional ideas like "KPOP is closing because of one bad review from the Times"

[everythingtaboo]

Posted: 12/9/22 at 11:50pm

Ain't No Mo and K-POP had some of the worst marketing in recent memory. Or in the case of Ain't No More, the more apt phrase is non-existent. If they're going to create unique Broadway shows, we need some new marketing companies out there who can better reach new audiences.

[ErmengardeStopSniveling]

Posted: 12/9/22 at 11:51pm

The only real "community that supports a show" = 8,000 people buying tickets at $100+ each for a sustained period of time.

[Ensemble1665759202]

Posted: 12/9/22 at 11:54pm

everythingtaboo said: "Ain't No Mo and K-POP had some of the worst marketing in recent memory. Or in the case of Ain't No More, the more apt phrase is non-existent. If they're going to create unique Broadway shows, we need some new marketing companies out there who can better reach new audiences."

I kinda disagree. I think that regardless of how great or hard a show markets, post-pandemic Broadway can only sustain musicals with big names or jukebox musicals. Hope that doesn't continue to be true, but it's how things seem at the moment tbh.

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 12:06am

I just came into New York and saw seven shows. This show appeals to me but nothing about the marketing or presentation of this production made it more important than the shows that we ended up slotting into our trip. The show had no stars, no performers I particularly love, the production didn't seem particularly spectacular, and while the ensemble was praised there wasn't a performance put forward as unmissable. I'm really looking forward to seeing this play for $50 at a regional theater here in Chicago, whenever it gets here. Nothing about the Broadway production felt like an event. 

This production might have had some or all of those things...but the marketing and press didn't clue me into that. I REALLY am looking forward to experiencing the play... it just didn't feel like there was a reason to see it on Broadway at Broadway prices. 

[LuPita2]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 12:36am

The defensiveness and almost an anger from some posters is really strange and interesting to me. Not all shows can or will resonate with all people who see them and sometimes you can never fully understand something for a variety of reasons. I am a second generation Dominican woman and I enjoyed Leopoldstadt immensely, but I will never fully understand what that experience was like and Im okay with that. 

White people will never fully get this show. That is not a put down, it's just a fact. So, the rudeness, the snide remarks about the grosses over and over again, and the white gatekeeping is gross and disturbing in my opinion.

Grab a ticket to this wonderful show even if it's out of your comfort zone! It's really good! 

 

Updated On: 12/10/22 at 12:36 AM

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:04am

New shows doing well: “A Beautiful Noise” & “Leo…” (can’t spell it). Broadway is super white. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:12am

Kad said: "And also like K-Pop, Ain’t No Mo is a Broadway transfer of an Off-Broadway production years after the fact. The momentum is evaporated."

Yep, and when we make a list under the heading "blame covid" this goes on that list too. 

"The average ticket buyer on Broadway is white and in their mid/late 40s. If you’re appealing to a broader audience- and you should! - it takes a marketing team that actually knows how to reach these audiences. Otherwise, you have to persuade the average ticket buyer- which you also should be doing. There is absolutely some baked in systemic racism in how these marketing campaigns are done. But it takes savvy producers to push against it."

Exactly. Broadway (at least part of it, including at least some seats of power) has the will to be more inclusive, but the means of accomplishing that goal have not caught up. They must. Much of how these shows (and more mainstream ones too) are publicized and marketed is being drawn out of playbooks that date back to the last century. It can't work and Broadway has to evolve to evolve. Features in the Times and interviews on WNYC don't have a payoff. The cobwebs are getting swept away far to slowly because shows are being managed by the wrong people even when they are produced by the right people. Daniels is the right guy but look at the support structure to which he was steered. Sorry but it's bound to fail. Yes there are some in this business who see that failure as their self-fulfilling prophecy but they have to be swept away too. I hope people like Cooper, once they get over their grieving, hang around and help Broadway sort this out.  

[newyorker1410]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 8:38am

Broadway marketing is incredibly up to date.  The vast majority of spending is on social media (including influencers) and digital research.  The marketing agencies are able to target anyone who has shown any interest in a play, or even googled the style of music, an actor, or anything related to the show.  

As I said on another thread the problem with both KPOP and ANM was the same problem that literally every new musical has, they were good, but not good enough.

Yes, there are economic headwinds, covid fears and 15% fewer tourists in the city.  And yes, Broadway has just begun to seriously court non-white, non-traditional audiences, but there were serious flaws with just about every new show.

Almost Famous, A Beautiful Noise and Some Like It Hot were old school shows that didn't make a dent beyond their target audiences.  I haven't seen Kimberly Akimbo, but & Juliet was fun, but fluff, and A Strange Loop, ANM and KPOP, were notable that they came from non-Broadway-traditional creators, but neither the books nor the music were remarkable.  All of these shows have their die-hard supporters, so I completely understand if you loved one of them, but none generated the necessary enthusiasm from the average theater goer.

So IMO this isn't about white people not getting it, or Broadway not knowing how to market their shows - the problem was that this years crop of new musicals weren't good enough.  

 

 

 

 

Updated On: 12/10/22 at 08:38 AM

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 9:19am

I might get shouted at for this but I don't care.

Message plays, plays lecturing people on how to be and how to see the world etc are not what people are after right now. The world has been through HELL for years now, yet the moment theatres can open, each new play seems to be yet another 'message" play 

Shows like Six, &Juliet, Moulin Rouge etc are doing well because it offers something fun, simple, a place to escape the non stop barrage of mess in the outside world, people do not want to walk in to the same thing. 

Plays need to adapt, of course we need still the kind of plays we are seeing, but we also need something different. More comedies, thrillers etc, something that reaches a mainstream audience.

Producers need to read the room. 

[ElephantLoveMedley]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 9:33am

songanddanceman2 said: "I might get shouted at for this but I don't care.

Message plays, plays lecturing people on how to be and how to see the world etc are not what people are after right now. The world has been through HELL for years now, yet the moment theatres can open, each new play seems to be yet another 'message" play

Shows like Six, &Juliet, Moulin Rouge etc are doing well because it offers something fun, simple, a place to escape the non stop barrage of mess in the outside world, people do not want to walk in to the same thing.

Plays need to adapt, of course we need still the kind of plays we are seeing, but we also need something different. More comedies, thrillers etc, something that reaches a mainstream audience.

Producers need to read the room."

I couldn’t agree more with this whole post!!!  

[ljay889]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 9:41am

songanddanceman2 said: "I might get shouted at for this but I don't care.

Message plays, plays lecturing people on how to be and how to see the world etc are not what people are after right now. The world has been through HELL for years now, yet the moment theatres can open, each new play seems to be yet another 'message" play

Shows like Six, &Juliet, Moulin Rouge etc are doing well because it offers something fun, simple, a place to escape the non stop barrage of mess in the outside world, people do not want to walk in to the same thing.

Plays need to adapt, of course we need still the kind of plays we are seeing, but we also need something different. More comedies, thrillers etc, something that reaches a mainstream audience.

Producers need to read the room."

This is a really good point. 

[ElephantLoveMedley]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 9:55am

SouthernCakes said: "New shows doing well: “A Beautiful Noise” & “Leo…” (can’t spell it). Broadway is super white."

Would love to learn more about how Leopoldstadt is a “white” show. Please enlighten me. 

[perfectliar]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 10:47am

Between KPop and this and the lingering memory of that 1776 interview, Broadway is so embarrassing right now lol. Like... it's a business. If you don't understand that, reconsider your career path.

FWIW, I had purchased a ticket to this show for $39 on TodayTix. The week of my show, I got a notice that my ticket was canceled (not the performance, my order) and I should buy a new one for $20 more. I don't know if they closed a section of the theater or what, but cancelling an order rather than reassigning a seat was absurd. I did not buy a new ticket, so there's at least one sale they lost due to their own ineptitude. It's also very indicative of how the whole production seems to have been run.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 11:23am

I disagree that marketing is up-to-date. Having a social media presence doesn’t mean you know how to use it or reach target audiences. It doesn’t mean you know how to create the correct content that will get audiences excited about seeing your show. I got a mailer for this play that said they couldn’t even say what the play is about until you open the mailer. How is that good marketing?

I think shows are behind in reaching their target communities, appealing to broader audiences, etc. A show doesn’t have to be good to garner excitement (and we’ve seen that with other shows in recent years). The “good but not good enough” argument hasn’t stopped shows from becoming massive hits. Some of those are still playing to sold-out houses on Broadway. Even bad shows can have terrific marketing. When people say the system is broken etc., marketing is one of things that hasn’t been fixed and hasn’t reached out to potentially new and younger audiences. I’ve seen multiple companies of shows over the past few years do more outreach to underrepresented communities and younger crowds than the shows’ marketing teams. I think it’s fair to say that the same marketing strategies don’t work for every show, and the ones that are failing are a certain type of show that hasn’t had good marketing.

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 11:28am

^^^^ Exactly.

[veronicamae]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 11:36am

As someone who works in advertising for this industry - it is an uphill battle to evolve advertising due to a number of factors, many of which are financial and how the mainstay producers view the value of how their dollars are spent. Most digital/online advertising has an actual quantifiable ROI, but they'd rather spend $ on an ad in the New York Times for zero measurable ROI and far fewer impressions per dollar for a number of reasons that may make sense to them and not to others. I genuinely believe that until there's a new crop of producers - they're coming, but slowly - there won't be a true evolution/modernization of Broadway advertising, which is what these "non-traditional" audience shows need.

Updated On: 12/10/22 at 11:36 AM

[Kad]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 12:20pm

I live up in Harlem and if you were going by visible advertisements, you would not know this show existed. No ads on bus stops or subways, no window cards in shops or other small businesses, nothing. 

[SouthernCakes]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:03pm

ElephantLoveMedley said: "SouthernCakes said: "New shows doing well: “A Beautiful Noise” & “Leo…” (can’t spell it). Broadway is super white."

Would love to learn more about how Leopoldstadt is a “white” show. Please enlighten me."

Look at the audience? 

[troynow]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:03pm

Is Broadway super white? Sure.
However, to blame every failure of a show of color on the “whiteness” of Broadway that is just wrong.

There are shows telling stories with Black people in them doing well. Examples:

TopDog/ Under Dog
Death of a Salesman
Piano Lesson

All have Black people in them some from a Black point of view.

Also, to say Ain’t No Mo just didn’t its audience is false. The show was not marketed well because Daniels is a first time producer. A NOVICE! Broadway is HARD. And you can’t force it like a movie. Furthermore the grossest were not moving in the direction of the public.

Speaking of… THE PUBLIC! Where was their support??? They were off too busy becoming producers for Fat Ham leaving their other show, Aint No Mo, out to dry.

Lastly, this is NOT COVID. Unfortunately, Broadway is a business not a not profit doing things for impact.

Walking With Ghost
KPOP
Aint No Mo

All closing/closed early for lack of tickets sales and or interest from the general public.

Do not indict the theatre community because people choose not to see your show.

ITS JUST WRONG. Not Racist.

[HeyMrMusic]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:22pm

Those three shows you mentioned are revivals of established titles starring celebrities.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:27pm

It's tough to use Topdog/Underdog as an example when they just pulled $300k at 56% capacity. Death of a Salesman is in a more solid position at around $460k and 65% capacity. Regardless of operating costs, those numbers are reflective of the demand for tickets. No one's expecting every play to get Leopoldstadt numbers, but I think songanddanceman2 was closer in saying:

"Message plays, plays lecturing people on how to be and how to see the world etc are not what people are after right now. The world has been through HELL for years now, yet the moment theatres can open, each new play seems to be yet another 'message" play"

"Traditional" audiences feel like these shows that aren't just fun musicals with colorblind casting are "too woke" whether they are relatively tame or politically radical. They just don't want to engage. They don't think it's "for them." I've been reading these things all over this message board. 

I do think there's a marketing issue simply informing underserved target audiences that these shows exist. But there's also work that has to be done convincing someone who isn't used to paying $50-$300 on a theater ticket that it's worth the cost. 

[HogansHero]

Posted: 12/10/22 at 1:29pm

newyorker1410 said: "Broadway marketing is incredibly up to date. The vast majority of spending is on social media (including influencers) and digital research. The marketing agencies are able to target anyone who has shown any interest in a play, or even googled the style of music, an actor, or anything related to the show.

As I said on another thread the problem with both KPOP and ANM was the same problem that literally every new musical has, they were good, but not good enough.

Yes, there are economic headwinds, covid fears and 15% fewer tourists in the city. And yes, Broadway has just begun to seriously court non-white, non-traditional audiences, but there were serious flaws with just about every new show.

Almost Famous, A Beautiful Noise and Some Like It Hot were old school shows that didn't make a dent beyond their target audiences. I haven't seen Kimberly Akimbo, but & Juliet was fun, but fluff, and A Strange Loop, ANM and KPOP, were notable that they came from non-Broadway-traditional creators, but neither the books nor the music were remarkable. All of these shows have their die-hard supporters, so I completely understand if you loved one of them, but none generated the necessary enthusiasm from the average theater goer.

So IMO this isn't about white people not getting it, or Broadway not knowing how to market their shows - the problem was that this years crop of new musicals weren't good enough."

That opening sentence of your post is so laughable but it pretty much discredits what follows in advance. (I won't repeat what Hey Mr Music says in their post.) A few quick comments though:

1. Lumping the two shows in the same pot qualitatively is not supportable. Look at the reviews.

2. It is remarkable what multiple posts in this thread think they know without seeing the show. 

3. When you start talking about serious flaws, you are talking at the margins and in generalities. A number of these shows have exceptionally strong reviews. (Obviously not all.) So when people say something to the contrary, they have either substituted personal opinion for objective analysis or they are speaking anecdotally based on personal opinions they have heard from others (or concluded based on nothing). 

4. The marketing problem is not unidirectional. There are serious problems with marketing to non-traditional audiences but there is also terrible problem with the marketing to mainstream audiences not all of which are disinterested in shows involving ethnicities other than their own (as some here seem to be) or that address real and challenging issues rather than merely offering fluff.

5. It's easy, and natural tbh, to commence the blame game at points like this. Yes, there is a lot of blame to go around but we get posts like "The show was not marketed well because Daniels is a first time producer." I guess it's not surprising that someone decides to blame the black guy but the fact is, this show had seasoned (white) producers and general management (with the same pedigree, as it happens, as KPOP), and I would say Daniels did as all smart tyro producers do and engaged people from within the existing infrastructure who then engaged other people from within. The fault, I would say, emanates from therein. We have to face the fact that the established players (contrary to that laughable opening statement) are inept when it comes to marketing for an audience beyond the well-paved paths they have always followed.

Updated On: 12/10/22 at 01:29 PM