BREAKING: Mandy Patinkin Withdraws from THE GREAT COMET- Page 20

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 3:42am

Colorblind casting refers to the process in which people of any color are in consideration for the same role and who ever is the best for the part is cast.  It just means that the color of the actor does not matter.

Color conscious casting refers to the process in which only people of a certain color are in consideration in order to guarantee diversity within the production.  This is the case with Hamilton.  For example the role of Aaron Burr will always be played by a black man.  The casting directors didn't just close their eyes and point.  They purposefully chose the person based upon their talent and appearance.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 5:27am

GeorgeandDot said: "Colorblind casting refers to the process in which people of any color are in consideration for the same role and who ever is the best for the part is cast.  It just means that the color of the actor does not matter.

Color conscious casting refers to the process in which only people of a certain color are in consideration in order to guarantee diversity within the production.  This is the case with Hamilton.  For example the role of Aaron Burr will always be played by a black man.  The casting directors didn't just close their eyes and point.  They purposefully chose the person based upon their talent and appearance.

 

"

This is the right explanation.

Therefore colorblind casting is always good. Equality. Taking the best person for a role.

Color conscious casting. Purposely casting on color, when the story does not speak about the ethnicity of the role can be fine too. It's the choice of the creators and they can do what they want/how they imagine a role. The problem kicks in when it turns into a 1 way street. A casting notice "white actors wanted for audition for Phantom, Pierre, etc would lead to acute hysteria, while a notice like "actors of color wanted for such and such" would be a different story. A white actor being replaced by a black actor? No problem. A black actor being replaced by a white actor? Hysteria. This 1 way street is unfair and dangerous.

It should work either both ways, or not work at all.

Only then we will start to see equality.

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 05:27 AM

[CarlosAlberto]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 6:34am

Because the article I linked came from a conservative news source doesn't make it any less valid. The bottom line is this had nothing to do with the race of the actor being replaced.

Some people need to sit back and analyze the situation before they go off making unfounded accusations that in the long run wind up causing more harm then good.

In this case someone saw that the black actor was replaced with the white one and made it about race.

The truth of the matter is that it was never about race but about replacing an actor who wasn't generating ticket sales because of his lack of box office "pull" with one that did. 

That is was turned into a racial issue is unfortunate.

But in this hypersensitive society we now live in - especially when it comes down to the color of our skin this is what happens. This is what we get - more unnecessary racial tension.

 

 

 

 

 

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 06:34 AM

[Dave28282]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 6:59am

CarlosAlberto said: " Some people need to sit back and analyze the situation before they go off making unfounded accusations that in the long run wind up causing more harm then good.

In this case someone saw that the black actor was replaced with the white one and made it about race.

The truth of the matter is that it was never about race but about replacing an actor who wasn't generating ticket sales because of his lack of box office "pull" with one that did. 

That is was turned into a racial issue is unfortunate.

But in this hypersensitive society we now live in - especially when it comes down to the color of our skin this is what happens. This is what we get - more unnecessary racial tension."

Exactly. Which is a shame.

The fact that he got cast, played the role, alongside another black leading lady, says a lot about the creators, and how they are as pro-equality as possible, is now ignored by the hysterical misinterpreters. Also the fact that this is a routine fact of Broadway life, is completely ignored.

Instead of being grateful about being treated as any other human being, we end up with this thankless hysteria. Which is a 1 way street. So if we can't be happy with being treated equal, as humans, where will it end? To differentiate yourself/your race in such a drastical way, without accepting to be treated as anyone else, will make producers in the future really think twice before hiring a black person. If they will not see themselves as human and behave as entitled, how the hell should others treat them? No one is more entitled than someone else.

And that is doing more harm than good. I really wonder when the gap is big enough for these people to see the light?

 

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 06:59 AM

[CorkySt.Clair]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 7:48am

People really need to look at the big picture before automatically labeling something as "racist". This show has a 43% POC cast, and the lead is an unknown black woman. I'm not saying that every situation can be labeled as this one can (usually, I'm on the side of those who decried the casting change), but this is just out of control. They should've made sure all the facts were in place before broadcasting their opinions to the world. 

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 07:48 AM

[Dancingthrulife2]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 11:49am

CorkySt.Clair said: "People really need to look at the big picture before automatically labeling something as "racist". This show has a 43% POC cast, and the lead is an unknown black woman (who happens to be playing a countess whom everyone calls beautiful!). I'm not saying that every situation can be labeled as this one can (usually, I'm on the side of those who decried the casting change), but this is just out of control. They should've made sure all the facts were in place before broadcasting their opinions to the world. 

 

"

Are you implying that a black woman can't be as beautiful as her white counterparts and that a black woman can't play a countess that is described to be of "Oriental" heritage?

Please enlighten me if your post, especially the sentence in the first bracket, can be interpreted otherwise. 

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 11:49 AM

[CorkySt.Clair]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 11:57am

^oh my goodness, I am so sorry, I didn't stop to think that it would be taken that way. I only meant to say that roles such as that were not always offered to minorities. I in no way believe that POC women are less beautiful than white women, but usually in theater, movies, etc. they are the ones being fawned over rather than POC women. I sincerely apologize if the words were taken any other way. All I meant was that I was happy that the role could go to a POC woman because it differs somewhat from what they get in other circumstances. Again, I am so, so, sorry. 

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 11:57 AM

[dramamama611]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 12:47pm

Corky -- FWIW, I didnt think your statement sounded in any way that you implied that about POC.   

[Robbie2]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 12:55pm

CarlosAlberto said: "Because the article I linked came from a conservative news source doesn't make it any less valid. The bottom line is this had nothing to do with the race of the actor being replaced.

Some people need to sit back and analyze the situation before they go off making unfounded accusations that in the long run wind up causing more harm then good.

In this case someone saw that the black actor was replaced with the white one and made it about race.

The truth of the matter is that it was never about race but about replacing an actor who wasn't generating ticket sales because of his lack of box office "pull" with one that did. 

That is was turned into a racial issue is unfortunate.

But in this hypersensitive society we now live in - especially when it comes down to the color of our skin this is what happens. This is what we get - more unnecessary racial tension.

 

 

 
Exactly...Thank You!
 

 

 

"

 

[hmph]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 12:59pm

dramamama611 said: "Corky -- FWIW, I didnt think your statement sounded in any way that you implied that about POC.   

"

I have to agree. Bit of a stretch of an interpretation!

[David10086]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 1:35pm

CorkySt.Clair said: "Honestly, how bad would it have been if they said right off the bat that they had money problems? I mean, it isn't great, but that sounds a heck of a lot better than their framing of it in the beginning."

It would have been VERY BAD!  No one in business - whether it be a retail store, restaurant, or Broadway musical - ever does this unless you purposely want to fail.  You never, ever let your potential patrons know that there is a problem financially because you risk losing their business. You always put a positive spin on everything, no matter how dire the situation may be. Now I'm not saying you lie about something (and these producers did not lie), you word things carefully and make every situation sound favorable. 

[The Distinctive Baritone]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 1:41pm

There's no such thing as "the best person for the role." It's only who the director and producers want for whatever reason. The end.

And as I've said, nobody is "colorblind" when it comes to race, so it's a total misnomer. It's very much a dated term from the 80's and 90's when the idea that non-white people could play traditionally white roles was novel. "Color conscious" is a more accurate description of what it really is. ALL casting - not to mention all of our interactions with each other as different races and ethnicities - is "color conscious" on some level.

"Colorblind" is on the same level of BS as "I don't see race." We all see race. What you do about it is what matters.

[CorkySt.Clair]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 1:44pm

^ Definitely, I mean looking vulnerable to potential patrons is never a good thing. I guess they should've just worded the original announcement better, and not made it sound like Mandy waltzed in and got the part (of course, this was later clarified a bit, it being noted that he'd expressed interest in the show for a long time). That original announcement is, of course, what started the whole firestorm, but then again being upfront about the financial problems would've seemed like a head-scratcher too. I can't seem to think of one way to handle this without complications (besides tweaking the marketing so it didn't need a name in the first place).

[Lot666]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 1:53pm

dramamama611 said: "Corky -- FWIW, I didnt think your statement sounded in any way that you implied that about POC."

Me either. I found that reaction rather a leap.

[schubox]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 2:05pm

Lot666 said: "dramamama611 said: "Corky -- FWIW, I didnt think your statement sounded in any way that you implied that about POC."

Me either. I found that reaction rather a leap.

 

"

Everyone is looking for something to get upset about 

[BroadwayRox3588]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 2:28pm

https://twitter.com/Bway4BLM

This Twitter account is being downright toxic toward the show, and seems to be actively trying to shut them down. Thankfully, Twitter users (and cast members) are not having it.

Updated On: 8/3/17 at 02:28 PM

[GeorgeandDot]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 2:38pm

The Distinctive Baritone said: "There's no such thing as "the best person for the role." It's only who the director and producers want for whatever reason. The end.

And as I've said, nobody is "colorblind" when it comes to race, so it's a total misnomer. It's very much a dated term from the 80's and 90's when the idea that non-white people could play traditionally white roles was novel. "Color conscious" is a more accurate description of what it really is. ALL casting - not to mention all of our interactions with each other as different races and ethnicities - is "color conscious" on some level.

"Colorblind" is on the same level of BS as "I don't see race." We all see race. What you do about it is what matters."

First of all I was a casting director for many, many years and I can confirm that there such a thing as "the best person for the role."  Do you seriously think that most actors on Broadway don't have to audition for their roles, even once they've won a Tony?  They definitely do and they choose who they think is the best choice for the role.

As for color-blind casting, I agree that it's ridiculous for people to say that they don't see color.  It's like they're ignoring a person's whole appearance.  Color-blind casting and color conscious casting are two entirely different things.  Color-blind casting is when people of all colors are taken into consideration for the role and color conscious casting is when only PoC are taken into consideration for the role.  They're two very different things.  

 

[SarahNYC2]

Posted: 8/3/17 at 11:04pm

I saw the performance tonight and the unfortunate thing about all this is Oak was wonderful in the part. I saw it with Josh Groban who is well, he's Josh Groan-there is no comparison. But if you hadn't seen Josh one would be very impressed with Oak. They should have handled this whole situation differently.

[belrowley]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 1:54am

Dave28282 said: "Instead of being grateful about being treated as any other human being, we end up with this thankless hysteria. Which is a 1 way street. So if we can't be happy with being treated equal, as humans, where will it end? To differentiate yourself/your race in such a drastical way, without accepting to be treated as anyone else, will make producers in the future really think twice before hiring a black person. If they will not see themselves as human and behave as entitled, how the hell should others treat them? No one is more entitled than someone else."

JFC, are you seriously saying that black people should be grateful for being treated as human beings? And black performers do not "see themselves as human"? You need to seriously reconsider your words and your entire outlook. This is a disgusting comment.

[Fan123]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 5:01am

Continuing one of the above tangents, interestingly Denee Benton has spoken about her role as being a relatively rare opportunity for a black woman to play the romantic lead / 'princess' character, for example: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/theater/denee-benton-tony-nominee-embraces-her-inner-natasha.html.

[Dave28282]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 5:15am

belrowley said: "JFC, are you seriously saying that black people should be grateful for being treated as human beings? And black performers do not "see themselves as human"? You need to seriously reconsider your words and your entire outlook. This is a disgusting comment."

I'm saying that they, and every other person should be happy when being treated like equals/any other human being. That seems not to be the case here. So I'm wondering where this entitlement comes from. 

 

Updated On: 8/4/17 at 05:15 AM

[sing_dance_love]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 6:50am

Well, there is an awful lot to unpack in this situation. But as far as the general casting discussion, the idea being floated around that everything should just be "equal" and "fair" and then everything will be wonderfully diverse is quite naive, IMO. Without purposeful color-conscious casting, progress just wouldn't happen, or at least not nearly as quickly. We live in a society influenced by centuries of racial inequality. Racial stereotypes, generalizations, and microagressions are regularly perpetuated in the media, and in every day interaction, often unconsciously and often unintentionally. It is ingrained in our society. And just as it took action to end or make progress on major equality struggles throughout the 20th century to today, from segregation and miscegenation, to women's suffrage and marriage equality, it will take color conscious casting to continue to enact change in this industry. Only once audiences are forced to recognize that stories featuring a true variety of the human experience are well worth their time and money and that the theater can be a wonderful place to broaden their horizons WHILE having a great time and consumer spending starts to confirm that recognition will we be in a place of equality. So no, POC are not entitled to anything. But the fight to create, affirm, and preserve opportunities for them is worthwhile and important in a society that is trying to make sense of ingrained privilege and oppression. 

And its unfortunate that this production and the complexities of this situation got involved in this larger discussion in such a messy and problematic way. 

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 8:26am

https://twitter.com/RafaelCasal/status/893221540891734017

Speaking of Bway4BLM, scroll down to where someone calls him out for liking one of their tweets.

[Lot666]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 8:45am

VintageSnarker said: "https://twitter.com/RafaelCasal/status/893221540891734017

Speaking of Bway4BLM, scroll down to where someone calls him out for liking one of their tweets."

Mr. Casal also tweeted:

"Actors of color on Broadway are required to make themselves famous enough to be in the shows that white actors get famous from."

Oak replaced Mr. Groban, who did not "get famous" from his role in The Great Comet, and Oak was to be replaced by Mr. Patinkin, who was also not going to "get famous" for the same role.

[JayElle]

Posted: 8/4/17 at 10:51am

Bottom line: money talks; all else walks.  This was never black vs white.  This was always green $  vs  black AND white.